26 February 2024, 06:20 | #1 |
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Is it possible to write hardware renderer for Wazp3D?
Hey friends, I'd like to ask the community about whether or not it would be possible for Wazp3D to have hardware rendering. My main motivation here is that I want to use my Radeon 9200 and Warp3D but due to the unknowable state of NDAs and various component ownerships I'm not convinced we'd ever see such a driver in OS3
So...is it possible for Wazp3D to have hardware rendering? Is there someone capable of writing something like this that I can commit bounty money to? |
26 February 2024, 09:02 | #2 |
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I am also interested and willing to put money into such a project.
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26 February 2024, 14:25 | #3 |
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It is a shame we never got 3D drivers for 68K Amiga OS outside of Voodoo 3 (heck the 3D drivers don't AFAIK even take advantage of Voodoo 4 or 5 chips).
I pray every time I switch my A1200 on that my Voodoo 3 doesn't die! |
27 February 2024, 02:26 | #4 |
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Generic, one size fits all hardware rendering, no, not possible.
It needs drivers. Wazp3d/Warp3d is simply the GL stack. |
29 February 2024, 03:12 | #5 |
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One of the problems with 3D on the Amiga is that they have relatively weak Motorola CPU’s and 3D accelerators of the time and what was eventually supported on Mediators does not support hardware T&L and therefore bottlenecked by the CPU. But having more cards with drivers would be nice. One thing I really like about Amiga OS 4.1 is the support for paid drivers for Radeon RX GPU’s with Warp3D Nova and video decode. Yes the PPC processors are comparatively anemic, but having hardware support is nice. I personally am fine with paying for drivers/enhancer packages.
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29 February 2024, 06:08 | #6 |
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How hardware t&l which is DX7 feature works on everything made prior to that? It does not. Just as pixel and vertex shaders don't work on titles where there are shaders, yes, but done by CPU. E.g. Quake. For DX7 level titles even if you did write a driver for Radeon 9700 pro most likely you'd still lack in CPU performance. Because regular CPU of DX7 era were already Pentium III/Athlon K7. Fetching game assets through UDMA/100 or 133 interface from hard drive. And moving them around in SDR (100-133MHz) or DDR SDRAM (200+). I'd say odds of getting something playable which supports hw t&l on 060 are not good. On the other hand texture filtering and mapping already takes off a load off 060 so getting that basic functionality from Radeon series is already great. Video decoding is slightly different because while Radeons usually had nice engine which supports decoding it's only part of the process. So it still require some CPU processing again taxing 060 a lot.
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29 February 2024, 12:00 | #7 |
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Hello
I am the Wazp3D author if Radeon 9200 have free source drivers for Linux then it will be perhaps possible to recompile/port them to AmigaOS. Once we will have this driver a Wazp3D wrapper from Warp3D functions to Linux Driver functions could be designed An other way would be to decompile/resource an existing OS4 Warp3D that support this card and then recompile/port it to OS3 But that will cause legal problems in some countries This will be difficult and I wont do it myself as I almost no more coding now Alain Thellier Note: no Warp3D is not a GL stack but a low level 3d triangles renderer. So MiniGL or StormMesa are the GL stacks and Warp3D contain the driver |
29 February 2024, 12:32 | #8 | |
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The Linux drivers will require a lot of kernel infrastructure, DRM, KMS etc, A simple wrapper is probably quite a understatement |
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29 February 2024, 12:58 | #9 | |
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https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/...xf86-video-ati I'd be happy to patreon support anyone taking on this task. I'd imagine you could get a following of 100-200 people $1-3 per month for 2-3 months. |
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29 February 2024, 20:17 | #10 | |
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Especially the closer you get to the 060 performance level, the lower that % of frame time is (assuming you're not just transforming absurd number of vertices for the platform) for this stage of pipeline. The Number 1 performance killer is the scanline rasterization, where you break down each triangle into horizontal spans and handholding CPU of computing/clipping the endpoints. Even on Atari Jaguar, when that code ran on RISC GPU (fully within the 4 KB cache), and even without actual rasterization of the scanline - just computing the endpoints, the 26.6 MHz RISC GPU could only process around 2,000 scanlines per frame. It did, however, 3D transform a ridiculous amount of triangles in the same amount of CPU time. I don't have my benchmarks here, but IIRC Vampire could process much higher number of scanlines per frame. Of course, once we introduce texturing, then the 3D transform stage becomes, basically, irrelevant from performance standpoint... |
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29 February 2024, 21:20 | #11 |
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Not that it is necessarily convenient from a wazp3d perspective, but there are already some hardware solutions out there based on ARM that are meant to be used as coprocessors (The ZZ9000, the Warp-cards etc). From that perspective it would be nice if there was a driver that could do something useful like 3d calculations etc on those ARM CPUs.
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01 March 2024, 06:47 | #12 | |
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Whether that's through some kind of hardware accelerated Wazp3D or something else, I'm ready to donate a chunk of change for a bounty and also contribute to further development in something like Patreon. But what exactly to ask for? And whom to ask? |
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01 March 2024, 08:51 | #13 | |
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Same here, someone maybe can raise a patreon or create a kickstarter for porting maybe latest Mesa on AOS3 supporting latest GPU (Videocore IV and VI, ATI Radeon etc....) avaible on Amiga.... |
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01 March 2024, 10:13 | #14 |
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I imagine that Videocore IV/VI (Pistorm GPU) are the most prolific Amiga gfx cards these days?
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01 March 2024, 12:55 | #15 |
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AROS for x86 have a Mesa port (=OpenGL) with hardware drivers for various 3d cards so porting it to amigaOs3 68k would certainly be the simpler way to add a more modern OpenGL to classic Amigas
Aros x86 already have a Wazp3D port with hardware rendering via this Mesa Dont know if Aros x86 support Radeon 9200 though Last edited by thellier; 01 March 2024 at 13:01. |
01 March 2024, 12:59 | #16 | |
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The wrapper was about calling this driver from Wazp3D ONCE it will be ported to Amiga = that wil be (somehow) the "simpler" (less difficult) part |
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01 March 2024, 13:03 | #17 | |
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Quote:
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01 March 2024, 13:10 | #18 | |
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But i dont have any clue about: how to call native OS/GPU from within the emulation ? what provide the Raspberry PI as 3D driver ? is it basic OpenGL driver or something else ? |
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01 March 2024, 13:12 | #19 |
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BTW I have ported Wazp3D to Maggie3D/Vampire but the performance are not good and it is still very bugged so it wasnt released yet
so they are only very simple 3D programs that run fine with this Wazp3D like glsokoban |
01 March 2024, 13:48 | #20 |
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