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Old 29 May 2021, 21:13   #1
Velociraptor5
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SFS System - Icon filenames longer than 25 characters - saving problem

Hi,
my problem is about filenames longer than 25 characters in SFS system.
I use Classic P96 Workbench (instaled WB 3.1), all is on HDF disk with SFS system, and all is running under WinUAE.


As we know, SFS system enables to work with the filenames longer than 25 characters (up to 95).

Here is quick FFS/SFS filename lenghts overview/comparation:
-Fast File System (FFS) - 25 (+5 reserved for ".info" files)
-Smart File System (SFS) - 95 (+5 reserved for ".info" files)


If I work with files (or folders) long 25 or less characters, I have absolutely no problem in any case.

If I try to work with files (or folders) longer than 25 characters, so I can display them correctly, copy them, move them and run the games without problems.

BUT....
here is a big problems with icons, a few examples now..

-impossibility to create an icon (Folder icon is a good example), if the filename is longer than 25 characters. The folder is created, the folder icon isn't. Tested in Directory Opus and also in WB enviroment, the same result.

-you can take any working icon (folder icon for an example) with 25 or less characters and rename it to more than 25 characters, that's not a problem. The problem is, that now you can't save anything to this icon like "window size" or "window position".

-you can take any working icon (perfect example is project icon of some WHDLoad game) with 25 or less characters and rename it to more than 25 characters, that's also not a problem. The problem is, that now you can't save anything to this icon like "Tool Types" if you want to change them.

-I also tried to create an icon (Folder icon is again a good example), if the filename is longer than 25 characters on RAM Disk, but the same problem like anywhere else, the folder is created, the folder icon isn't.



Does anybody know, what is all about? Does it have a solution? Or it is some system restriction. In my opinion it has nothing to do with the file systems (FFS/SFS...), but just my opinion...
By the way I tried before time also PFS system, but absolutely the same problem.


Any idea, why and how?

Thanks
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Old 30 May 2021, 14:15   #2
daxb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor5 View Post
As we know, SFS system enables to work with the filenames longer than 25 characters (up to 95).
Up to 107 characters.

Quote:
Does anybody know, what is all about? Does it have a solution? Or it is some system restriction.
I think this is an OS (3.1) limit. Try new workbench.library and icon.library.

The good thing is, normally you never need icon files larger then the limit. I never needed it or fall in that problem. Drawer icons usually don't need any changeable content. So, no problem with length. Own project icons are shorter if you don't "break" yourself. If you can't live with the limit try a newer OS.
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Old 30 May 2021, 14:51   #3
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It's an artificial limit, but it's there for a good reason:

If your file system does not support long file names and you save a file with a long name along with its icon, then both names will be cut after 30 characters. This means the icon does not only loose its .info extension, but it also overwrites the actual file because it now has the same name. This is the worst thing which can happen.

Therefore both Workbench and DOpus limit the file name length so that the .info extension always fits.

However, as daxb already mentioned, newer versions of both programs will allow you to extend the limit. Workbench from 3.9 on and DOpus at least in version 5.8.
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Old 30 May 2021, 16:50   #4
Velociraptor5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daxb View Post
Up to 107 characters.


I think this is an OS (3.1) limit. Try new workbench.library and icon.library.

The good thing is, normally you never need icon files larger then the limit. I never needed it or fall in that problem. Drawer icons usually don't need any changeable content. So, no problem with length. Own project icons are shorter if you don't "break" yourself. If you can't live with the limit try a newer OS.

Hi,
you are right, limit is 107 but 102 (+5 reserved for ".info" files), now tested.

The various icon examples was only for explanation of the problem.
Actually, I am interested in Folder icons only, nothing more. Maybe normally somebody never need icon files larger than the limit, but I wanted to have perfect description of the games, original WHDLoad names are sometimes quite stupid. I have enough space under the folder icons cca 40 characters (very wide icons). Before time I had builded the WHDLoad system, where the Foldernames have been longer than 25 characters, but it have been quite difficult for maintenance, because ccs 25% of WHDLoad content have been described by names longer than 25 characters. That means, these games had to be first saved (window size and positions) with the lenght max 25 characters and then could be renamed to wanted lenght (more than 25 characters). And everything worked fine, but as I said, it's not too comfortable.

About libraries...
My system contains icon.library v46.4.326 (68020), but doesn't contain any workbench.library. The aminet contains newer versions of icon.library (also contains workbench libraries) but now is out of order, I'll have to test it later.

About OS3.5 and more..
Before time i was testing OS3.5 just for fun, but it's horrible system compared to Classic Workbench with WB3.1., because this system is already much more similar to Windows, and much more comfortable for me.


Thanks for the info
Unfortunately, I'll try to replace the libraries later until the Aminet is working.
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Old 30 May 2021, 16:53   #5
Velociraptor5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thomas View Post
It's an artificial limit, but it's there for a good reason:

If your file system does not support long file names and you save a file with a long name along with its icon, then both names will be cut after 30 characters. This means the icon does not only loose its .info extension, but it also overwrites the actual file because it now has the same name. This is the worst thing which can happen.

Therefore both Workbench and DOpus limit the file name length so that the .info extension always fits.

However, as daxb already mentioned, newer versions of both programs will allow you to extend the limit. Workbench from 3.9 on and DOpus at least in version 5.8.

Thanks for the info.

Just note...
The problem is only with the creating or saving to the icon. Once, the icon is created, of course with 25 or less characters, then you can rename it how you want, that means more than 25 characters. 30, 40, 50 ... as much as you want (max 102+5). And it can be done in Directory Opus or WB enviroment, but then the problem is only with the saving to the icon.
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Old 31 May 2021, 13:29   #6
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You may have a look at OS 3.2 or 3.1.4.1 if you don't like OS 3.5/3.9. Exchanging only some parts of the OS perhaps work but I wouldn't recommend this because of unexpected side effects.
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Old 31 May 2021, 13:48   #7
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I would advise against using long names and write from Dopus4 the full name in the comment file.
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Old 31 May 2021, 19:15   #8
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The "MaxNameLength" value for icons can be set with the Workbench preferences on OS 3.1.4 or with "WBCTRL MNL=102" (or maybe 95) for WB 3.5/3.9.

In case that you still have an older workbench.library which has no support for longer filenames, but a newer icon.library like my 46.4 then you could try my simple command for setting MNL=102 (sorry, it's hard coded to 102, I didn't know the SFS limit, you can put it into the user-startup or startup-sequence):

Update: Just edited the "102" into a "95" under Windows, that's at offset $55, the value was $66 and is now $5F, hope it works (check the protection flags to be RWED on the Amiga.

GlobalMNL program removed, because it didn't work as intended. Sorry!

Last edited by PeterK; 03 June 2021 at 13:20.
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Old 01 June 2021, 16:52   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterK View Post
The "MaxNameLength" value for icons can be set with the Workbench preferences on OS 3.1.4 or with "WBCTRL MNL=102" (or maybe 95) for WB 3.5/3.9.

In case that you still have an older workbench.library which has no support for longer filenames, but a newer icon.library like my 46.4 then you could try my simple command for setting MNL=102 (sorry, it's hard coded to 102, I didn't know the SFS limit, you can put it into the user-startup or startup-sequence):

Update: Just edited the "102" into a "95" under Windows, that's at offset $55, the value was $66 and is now $5F, hope it works (check the protection flags to be RWED on the Amiga.

Thanks for your info.

I have heard about the "MaxNameLength" or "WBCTRL", but it has been connected with OS3.5 and more. That's why I didn't want to write about it.

I have to repeat. I use Classic Workbench P96 and this WB requires either WB3.0 or WB3.1 for instalation only. Nothing less, nothing more. Unfortunately, I don't want to change it for any other OS, because in my opinion, It's maximum reachable and comfortable under WinUAE. Absolutely everything is pre-instaled, screen resolutions what you want, context menus... just "litlle windows" in Amiga enviroment.

Ok. You are speaking about OS 3.1.4 or OS 3.5/3.9. Let's say, that your idea or advice could work also at me. I would like to try it (already tried, probably wrongly), but I will need your supervision. Just say where I am wrong or just say, it doesn't make a sense to test it at me at all.

Recapitulation:
My system doesn't contain any workbench.library, contains icon.library v46.4.326 (68020), I can change it for newer v46.4.543 (68020) taken from Aminet.

Now, we have your 2 files (3):
GlobalMNL102
GlobalMNL102.asm

I would put both to the "C/" directory and then write to the "user-startup" or "startup-sequence" (both?) this:
C:GlobalMNL102

(can it be placed wherever? up, down, in the midle of the document...)

and save.

...and maybe it could work.

Am I correct or totally wrong? I don't have enough experiences with "startup sequences"...

Thanks
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Old 01 June 2021, 17:20   #10
PeterK
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Yes, I know that ClassicWB uses the workbench.library of the Kickstart Rom. I just wanted to tell you that the setting for MaxNameLength is usually sent to workbench.library and then passed forward from there to icon.library on other systems (don't ask me why not directly).

So, that's why I wrote this small program, it sends the MNL setting directly to icon.library v44+.

Just copy GlobalMNL95 or GlobalMNL102 into the C: drawer. No, you won't need the source code there. But make sure that these commands are executable, check that they have the protection flag E set.

You can then first test from a shell if it works at all. Type the command GlobalMNL95 (or GlobalMNL102) and execute it. Then check whether you are able to create icons with long names on SFS.

If that works edit your startup-sequence and write the command GlobalMNL95 in a new line above LoadWB.
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Old 03 June 2021, 02:34   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterK View Post
Yes, I know that ClassicWB uses the workbench.library of the Kickstart Rom. I just wanted to tell you that the setting for MaxNameLength is usually sent to workbench.library and then passed forward from there to icon.library on other systems (don't ask me why not directly).

So, that's why I wrote this small program, it sends the MNL setting directly to icon.library v44+.

Just copy GlobalMNL95 or GlobalMNL102 into the C: drawer. No, you won't need the source code there. But make sure that these commands are executable, check that they have the protection flag E set.

You can then first test from a shell if it works at all. Type the command GlobalMNL95 (or GlobalMNL102) and execute it. Then check whether you are able to create icons with long names on SFS.

If that works edit your startup-sequence and write the command GlobalMNL95 in a new line above LoadWB.

Hi,
bad new, it doesn't work...

- all tested with these files GlobalMNL95 and GlobalMNL102 separately
- there was RWED set
- the file put to the C: drawer
- the file run from Shell and worked (that means does nothing visible)
- if the filename is longer than 25 characters, the drawer icon is not created (in WB nor D. Opus)
- also tested with C:GlobalMNL95 (or GlobalMNL102) in "Startup-Sequence", the same problem
- also original icon.library v46.4.326 exchanged for newer v46.4.543, the same problem


By the way, i have seen probably your track in Classic WB P96, where is "PeterK PNG 3.5+ Icon support" (I have this option turned ON).
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Old 03 June 2021, 13:07   #12
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You need a newer workbench.library running. For ROM 3.1 it is in the ROM. So you need to copy a newer workbench.library to Libs: and then load it.
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Old 03 June 2021, 13:17   #13
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Oh sorry, my mistake, I should have tested my program before uploading it here.

The tag for IconControl() was wrong, but even with the correct tag, when the MNL was set in icon.library, it still doesn't work with WB 3.1. With workbench.library v44+ the icons with long names are created, but the old workbench.library v40 seems to prevent that.

Sorry again, please remove GlobalMNL again and delete the lha archive. For WB v44+ you can use WBCTRL MNL=95, but you don't have that. A WB v44+ also needs a different FBlit.cfg, if that is installed.

Last edited by PeterK; 03 June 2021 at 13:26.
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Old 03 June 2021, 23:25   #14
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Oh sorry, my mistake, I should have tested my program before uploading it here.

The tag for IconControl() was wrong, but even with the correct tag, when the MNL was set in icon.library, it still doesn't work with WB 3.1. With workbench.library v44+ the icons with long names are created, but the old workbench.library v40 seems to prevent that.

Sorry again, please remove GlobalMNL again and delete the lha archive. For WB v44+ you can use WBCTRL MNL=95, but you don't have that. A WB v44+ also needs a different FBlit.cfg, if that is installed.


Thanks for your info.
I would like to know your last opinion... You know my configuration (see above), so is it possible to make the filenames longer than 25 characters working? (to create an icon or to save to an icon). I would like to hear clear NO or YES, because I already don't want to be thinking about it in the future.

For sure, short overview, what I yet tried:
- your commands GlobalMNL95/102 inserted to "C:" + "C:GlobalMNL95/102" to Startup-Sequence
- original icon.library v46.4.326 exchanged for newer v46.4.543
- workbench.library v45.127 inserted to "Libs:" (as wrote "daxb")
- command WBCtrl inserted to "C:" + "C:WBCtrl MNL=95" to Startup-Sequence
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Old 04 June 2021, 12:03   #15
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A problem could be that you are using ClassicWB P96, and I don't know that. Does it have Scalos 1.2 installed on top of the Workbench 3.1?

It's not enough to just copy the newer libraries into Libs:. You have to remove the old ones and load the new libs.

On a normal OS 3.1 system you can replace the workbench.library and the icon.library v40 of the Rom with tools like RemLib, SetPatch v44, LoadResident or LoadModule for example. I've tried that and then it loads the libraies from Libs: and icons with long names are possible.

But it's not so easy if you want to do it correctly. ClassicWB has a very special setup and startup-sequence. With Scalos 1.2 it may not work at all. And you would also need another FBlit.cfg for v44+ and more tweaks.

It's much better to say good bye to ClassicWB and install a complete new system with OS 3.1.4 or even 3.2, as soon as the bugs are fixed.
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Old 05 June 2021, 03:54   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterK View Post
A problem could be that you are using ClassicWB P96, and I don't know that. Does it have Scalos 1.2 installed on top of the Workbench 3.1?

It's not enough to just copy the newer libraries into Libs:. You have to remove the old ones and load the new libs.

On a normal OS 3.1 system you can replace the workbench.library and the icon.library v40 of the Rom with tools like RemLib, SetPatch v44, LoadResident or LoadModule for example. I've tried that and then it loads the libraies from Libs: and icons with long names are possible.

But it's not so easy if you want to do it correctly. ClassicWB has a very special setup and startup-sequence. With Scalos 1.2 it may not work at all. And you would also need another FBlit.cfg for v44+ and more tweaks.

It's much better to say good bye to ClassicWB and install a complete new system with OS 3.1.4 or even 3.2, as soon as the bugs are fixed.


Hi,
the Scalos is v39.222 - Release 1.2d.
You are right, It's impossible or terribly difficult. Better to stay under 25 characters. Even if, who knows, maybe once I'll test another system...
At least I'm clear on that. But thanks for your time and advices.
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