Theory thread: How would you update C64? - Page 2

Retro1234 · 07 February 2023, 16:39

I'm sure I had some German magazine once and on the cover was a towered C64 with CD-ROM and it said something like is it time to stop updating the C64 - this was in the 90s

Jope · 07 February 2023, 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weasel Fierce

Its an alternate timeline. You get the task of updating the C64 one last time before the 16 bit systems really take over.

Have a 6551 ACIA instead of the bitbang rs232 port and implement burst IEC, which was supposed to be in the C64 from the get go.

Maybe also stereo SIDs.

Gorf · 27 February 2023, 13:52

Probably 2 things:

the C64 on a card - Zorro and ISA
the C64-laptop

For both Commodore would have needed to integrate the C64 into a single CMOS SoC
The "laptop" would come with a small and cheap 16 color LCD and thanks to the CMOS SoC provide a very long battery life compared to contemporary laptops.
Battery backed DRAM as (multiple) disk emulation.

d4rk3lf · 27 February 2023, 14:42

I'd change it's color palette to more pleasant colors, perhaps something like Amstrad CPC palette.

Other then that, I think it's amazing computer in it's 8-bit category, and I feel really lucky it was my first computer.

gimbal · 27 February 2023, 15:10

This video shows off the game Metal Dust (11:10) which requires a very much expanded C64:

[ Show youtube player ]

This would be it really. A C64 with enough horsepower to blast a lot of sprites on screen and stream sampled music. Apparently it already existed.

NorthWay · 27 February 2023, 15:19

For a bit more "low-key" affair I'd go for the 64-X2 instead of the 128:
2nd SID.
Static 6510 clocked 2MHz and running all cycles not used by VIC-II.
DMA engine like the 1750. (Expand it to be a little blitter like if possible.) Extra memory sockets that the engine can reach.

Retro-Nerd · 27 February 2023, 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by gimbal

This video shows off the game Metal Dust (11:10) which requires a very much expanded C64:

[ Show youtube player ]

This would be it really. A C64 with enough horsepower to blast a lot of sprites on screen and stream sampled music. Apparently it already existed.

Yep, the SuperCPU. There are some SCPU fixed classic C64 games which benefits from this massive turbo/ram expansion.

Stunt Car Racer e.g. run in 50fps. Or faster screen switching for Last Ninja, very fast vector filling for the Leaderboard greens.

[ Show youtube player ]

gimbal · 27 February 2023, 16:51

I'm going to say something that in the Netherlands we would describe as "cursing in church", but the game looks so much more playable with a framerate like that.

Pyromania · 27 February 2023, 16:56

I did this upgrade in 1988.

Step 1 sell C64.

Step 2 use the money from the sale to buy an Amiga.

Upgrade complete!

gimbal · 27 February 2023, 17:50

Some upgrade, the C64 games don't boot on it.

eXeler0 · 27 February 2023, 21:57

From a technological perspective the never released c65 drives home the point that there wasnt really room for a middle-step between the c64 and the A500.
I think any minor upgrades to the c64 would suffer from the same problem as the SuperGrafx (a PC Engine with double gfx performance). Not enough market share compared to the hardware it aims to replace so devs stick to the original one. (also, how many c128 only games were released?)
But if we ignore all that, I’m on the same page as Tigerskunk, 4 Mhz cpU, dual SId, brtter palette (every pixel can be any color.. say 32or 64 onscreen from a palette of 256.

Gorf · 27 February 2023, 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by eXeler0

also, how many c128 only games were released?

The C128 was really not designed for games besides being able to run C64 games. All its new features were tailored towards productivity software. And there it got at least a few releases - most importantly a special GEOS version.
(and of course all the CP/M stuff)

lmimmfn · 28 February 2023, 02:22

Have it use the CPC palette, which is a 3x3x3 RGB cube(Amiga being 16x16x16 of same)
I know it's a legacy of NTSC but those washed out colours and browns, yuck.
And also like the CPC have it producing proper RGB instead of RF.

Maybe also bundle it with a monitor, the reason our family got a CPC over a C64 was mainly due to bundled colour monitor, portable decent colour tvs in the 80s were mega expensive and without which meant hogging the main TV.

The reason I got so much 8 bit gaming time is that I wasn't interfering with the family viewing.

Pyromania · 28 February 2023, 02:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by gimbal

Some upgrade, the C64 games don't boot on it.

After seeing Amiga games I was allergic to C64 games anyway.

Nightshft · 28 February 2023, 21:50

- dual SID for Stereo Sound
- 128kB Ram
- and the nicest improvement in my opinion would have been a fast and reliable disk drive with higher capacity. Using better error correction to minimize data corruption (Did it happen to you too? I had that sometimes).

Imagine a nice, reliable and fast 1581 drive...

Gorf · 28 February 2023, 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightshft

- and the nicest improvement in my opinion would have been a fast and reliable disk drive with higher capacity. Using better error correction to minimize data corruption (Did it happen to you too? I had that sometimes).

Imagine a nice, reliable and fast 1581 drive...

hmm - I never had a 1581 ... 3.5'' on a C64 - those came too late for me

The 1541 on the other hand was dog-slow without fast-loader because of the famous bug in the serializer of the predecessor, but otherwise very reliable in my case.

I really do not understand why Commodore never addressed that slowness-bug in later revisions.

Strange thing:
Commodore already had 5.25'' floppy drives with 1MB capacity in 1980, but never made them available for the C64

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_8050

Pyromania · 01 March 2023, 04:46

A stereo SID chip or two SID chips in a computer is a great idea. Even an Amiga custom chip or two in a C64 would have been a good idea. Dan you imagine skinny diet Angus in the C64 bumping up its resolution and graphics.

eXeler0 · 01 March 2023, 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyromania

A stereo SID chip or two SID chips in a computer is a great idea. Even an Amiga custom chip or two in a C64 would have been a good idea. Dan you imagine skinny diet Angus in the C64 bumping up its resolution and graphics.

Late to the party?

https://cbmretro.fi/product/c64-stereo-sid-diy-kit/

Havie · 01 March 2023, 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by ross

Dual (stereo) SID.

Just imagine this beauty in the days:
[ Show youtube player ]

This is a wonderful tune - there's something special about chip music compared to samples and the SID does it best.

Retro-Nerd · 02 March 2023, 00:28

Why 2 when you can have 8.

[ Show youtube player ]

27 February 2023, 13:52	#23
Gorf Registered User Join Date: May 2017 Location: Munich/Bavaria Posts: 2,050	Probably 2 things: the C64 on a card - Zorro and ISA the C64-laptop For both Commodore would have needed to integrate the C64 into a single CMOS SoC The "laptop" would come with a small and cheap 16 color LCD and thanks to the CMOS SoC provide a very long battery life compared to contemporary laptops. Battery backed DRAM as (multiple) disk emulation.

27 February 2023, 21:57	#31
eXeler0 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Sweden Age: 49 Posts: 2,555	Theory thread: How would you update C64? From a technological perspective the never released c65 drives home the point that there wasnt really room for a middle-step between the c64 and the A500. I think any minor upgrades to the c64 would suffer from the same problem as the SuperGrafx (a PC Engine with double gfx performance). Not enough market share compared to the hardware it aims to replace so devs stick to the original one. (also, how many c128 only games were released?) But if we ignore all that, I’m on the same page as Tigerskunk, 4 Mhz cpU, dual SId, brtter palette (every pixel can be any color.. say 32or 64 onscreen from a palette of 256.

28 February 2023, 02:22	#33
lmimmfn Registered User Join Date: May 2018 Location: Ireland Posts: 513	Have it use the CPC palette, which is a 3x3x3 RGB cube(Amiga being 16x16x16 of same) I know it's a legacy of NTSC but those washed out colours and browns, yuck. And also like the CPC have it producing proper RGB instead of RF. Maybe also bundle it with a monitor, the reason our family got a CPC over a C64 was mainly due to bundled colour monitor, portable decent colour tvs in the 80s were mega expensive and without which meant hogging the main TV. The reason I got so much 8 bit gaming time is that I wasn't interfering with the family viewing. Last edited by lmimmfn; 28 February 2023 at 02:28.

02 March 2023, 00:28	#40
Retro-Nerd Missile Command Champion Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Germany Age: 51 Posts: 12,388	Why 2 when you can have 8. [ Show youtube player ] Last edited by Retro-Nerd; 02 March 2023 at 00:42.

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07 February 2023, 16:39	#21
Retro1234 Cuthbert The Movie Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: 5150 Posts: 5,451	I'm sure I had some German magazine once and on the cover was a towered C64 with CD-ROM and it said something like is it time to stop updating the C64 - this was in the 90s

27 February 2023, 14:42	#24
d4rk3lf Registered User Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Novi Sad, Serbia Posts: 1,483	I'd change it's color palette to more pleasant colors, perhaps something like Amstrad CPC palette. Other then that, I think it's amazing computer in it's 8-bit category, and I feel really lucky it was my first computer.

27 February 2023, 15:10	#25
gimbal cheeky scoundrel Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Spijkenisse/Netherlands Age: 41 Posts: 6,359	This video shows off the game Metal Dust (11:10) which requires a very much expanded C64: [ Show youtube player ] This would be it really. A C64 with enough horsepower to blast a lot of sprites on screen and stream sampled music. Apparently it already existed.

27 February 2023, 15:19	#26
NorthWay Registered User Join Date: May 2013 Location: Grimstad / Norway Posts: 807	For a bit more "low-key" affair I'd go for the 64-X2 instead of the 128: 2nd SID. Static 6510 clocked 2MHz and running all cycles not used by VIC-II. DMA engine like the 1750. (Expand it to be a little blitter like if possible.) Extra memory sockets that the engine can reach.

27 February 2023, 16:51	#28
gimbal cheeky scoundrel Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Spijkenisse/Netherlands Age: 41 Posts: 6,359	I'm going to say something that in the Netherlands we would describe as "cursing in church", but the game looks so much more playable with a framerate like that.

27 February 2023, 16:56	#29
Pyromania Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 3,198	I did this upgrade in 1988. Step 1 sell C64. Step 2 use the money from the sale to buy an Amiga. Upgrade complete!

27 February 2023, 17:50	#30
gimbal cheeky scoundrel Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Spijkenisse/Netherlands Age: 41 Posts: 6,359	Some upgrade, the C64 games don't boot on it.

28 February 2023, 21:50	#35
Nightshft Registered User Join Date: Mar 2018 Location: Austria Posts: 598	- dual SID for Stereo Sound - 128kB Ram - and the nicest improvement in my opinion would have been a fast and reliable disk drive with higher capacity. Using better error correction to minimize data corruption (Did it happen to you too? I had that sometimes). Imagine a nice, reliable and fast 1581 drive...

01 March 2023, 04:46	#37
Pyromania Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 3,198	A stereo SID chip or two SID chips in a computer is a great idea. Even an Amiga custom chip or two in a C64 would have been a good idea. Dan you imagine skinny diet Angus in the C64 bumping up its resolution and graphics.

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