Is Batman the Movie for the Atari ST the best development from Ocean?

[dlfrsilver]

Originally Posted by Megalomaniac

Issue 1 of ST/Amiga Format suggests that, in the UK, there were 3 times as many STs as Amigas in the UK at the time, but in the US there were 3 times as many Amigas.

Which year ? the ST failed in the US, while the Amiga got 1,2 millions unit mostly used as workstations in the industry in the US. Add the almost 5 millions units present in Europe, plus Australasia, and you get the numbers.

The ST had 3 big markets : (1) UK, (2) Germany, (3) France. most of these 3 countries represent almost all the machines sold.

With the price gap closing afterwards there may have been a similar amount of Amigas and ST in use in the UK by late 198. Surprisingly, I think piracy was a bigger issue on the ST than the Amiga. Wikipedia has a link mentioning that ST Dungeon Master sold 40,000 in its first year, seemingly in the US alone, but I'm not sure how UK ST and Amiga game sales compared.

The Amiga had much more units installed on the globe (and in Europe, mostly) around 1989.

Yes, the piracy was a bigger issue on the ST (while the Amiga had its fair share of it), but it appears the Amiga users had more money to buy originals.

Regarding Dungeon Master, there is a conflict between the Amount sold and declared in UK, with what FTL declared on their side.....

Still, most British games were still being designed primarily around the ST in late 1989 - Shadow of the Beast really was a trendsetter - so I doubt that ST games were loss-making that early, as presumably designing a game around the ST would cost you some quality for the Amiga version, and thus some Amiga sales, especially for original creations (were Mirrorsoft unhappy with the Bitmaps for designing Xenon 2 primarily around the ST, for example?)

Remember that the Amiga users "riotted" against the publishers. There are many blood letters in the UK mags stating that "f*ck you with your shite ST ports, if we wanted to get ST games, we would had bought ST computers not Amigas, so now on, if you continue to release ST ports, we will simply boycott you, so the ball is on your side". the Bitmap Bros were ST coders, and mirrorsoft were making ST first games.

Would Batman: The Movie on the Amiga have been done to make more use of Amiga hardware if Commodore hadn't set a deadline? It needed to be out for Christmas, and licensed games or conversions was almost all just done as ST ports back then. Where Amiga games outselling ST ones in the UK by then? (Not that quality made that big a difference to sales for big name stuff anyway)

Amiga games outsold ST games very early. The ST got the same amount of commercial games than the Amstrad CPC (3500-4000), while the Amiga stands up with more than 6900 commercial games.

Decent horizontal scrolling could be done on the ST within the right parameters and compromises though, Wayne Smithson had some good routines in Blood Money and Anarchy, and Wrath of the Demon is impressive too. The ST was better for pure 3D games too, off topic.

Yes some games on ST have good scrolling (through compromises yep).

The ST was not better for pure 3D games. It seemed better because 98% of the 3D games running on Amiga are ST code/screen emulation. the Amiga requires CPU-Blitter combo to make good 3D (Ambermoon, wolf3D, Dread).

[dlfrsilver]

Originally Posted by Megalomaniac

I'm not sure the standard ST could do a better SOTB-style game than Wrath of the Demon. It really feels phenomenal. The STe could probably get closer, though still with less colours. Someone has remade Lotus 1 for the STe and its pretty close to the Amga version.

The rework of Lotus shows that even the CPU rendering goes faster than the Blitter new version.

[Megalomaniac]

Spookily Mobygames has exactly the same number of ST games as Amiga games for up to 1989, and 2225 ST games from 1992 or earlier, compared to 2693 Amiga games (not all commercial, in both cases, and not a compete archive, but a good guide). It was only the Amiga's longer survival that meant the Amiga finished with maybe twice as many games as the ST. ST games must have still been selling something.

Besides, were Amiga owners proiritising buying Amiga originals? I bet Amiga Xenon 2 (more or less an ST port) outsold Hybris and Datastorm (both pure Amiga originals which an ST could not match) combined, for example. This would change in future, of course. ST Format was slightly outselling Amiga Format early after they split in mid-1989 (though not by 1990, suggesting that Amigas sold much more than STs at Christmas 1989, despite or perhaps because of the STe) , so maybe the Amiga owner letters were offset by letters from ST owners appreciating their games, and asking for conversions of Hybris and Datastorm (unrealistic though they may have been if they expected them to match the Amiga versions)?

[dlfrsilver]

Originally Posted by Megalomaniac

Spookily Mobygames has exactly the same number of ST games as Amiga games for up to 1989, and 2225 ST games from 1992 or earlier, compared to 2693 Amiga games (not all commercial, in both cases, and not a compete archive, but a good guide). It was only the Amiga's longer survival that meant the Amiga finished with maybe twice as many games as the ST. ST games must have still been selling something.

Besides, were Amiga owners proiritising buying Amiga originals? I bet Amiga Xenon 2 (more or less an ST port) outsold Hybris and Datastorm (both pure Amiga originals which an ST could not match) combined, for example. This would change in future, of course. ST Format was slightly outselling Amiga Format early after they split in mid-1989 (though not by 1990, suggesting that Amigas sold much more than STs at Christmas 1989, despite or perhaps because of the STe) , so maybe the Amiga owner letters were offset by letters from ST owners appreciating their games, and asking for conversions of Hybris and Datastorm (unrealistic though they may have been if they expected them to match the Amiga versions)?

You need to remove all the double entries on ST. The ST had specific titles, never released on Amiga, but the Amiga had much more titles never released on ST.

the Hybris publisher was only dev and releasing on Amiga, they never worked on Atari ST.

[Amigajay]

Originally Posted by dlfrsilver

while the Amiga stands up with more than 6900 commercial games.

The Amiga had nowhere near that number of commercial games, i’m still updating my CD32 A-Z discs with commercial only games, taking out duplicates, etc etc i’m only upto 3,100 with another 250 games to add and 80 mia games, even at a stretch adding 500+ games out of the woodwork (which is a big stretch unless you add Amiga cd titles and weird post 97 setups) this would max out at 4,000. Not sure where you are finding those extra 3k from!?

[Keops/Equinox]

Originally Posted by Amigajay

The Amiga had nowhere near that number of commercial games, i’m still updating my CD32 A-Z discs with commercial only games, taking out duplicates, etc etc i’m only upto 3,100 with another 250 games to add and 80 mia games, even at a stretch adding 500+ games out of the woodwork (which is a big stretch unless you add Amiga cd titles and weird post 97 setups) this would max out at 4,000. Not sure where you are finding those extra 3k from!?

This is totally wrong indeed. HOL lists 3900 released commercial games that are not compilations. I totally trust HOL to have it right, even if there might be a few games missing.

Out of those 3900 listed games, some have multiple entries depending on their localization (French / German / English / US) and some have specific OCS/ECS, AGA, CD32 and CDTV entries.

In the end, the actual number of unique commercial games is probably below 4000 indeed.

(LemonAmiga lists 3627 commercial games)

[dlfrsilver]

Originally Posted by Keops/Equinox

This is totally wrong indeed. HOL lists 3900 released commercial games that are not compilations. I totally trust HOL to have it right, even if there might be a few games missing.

Out of those 3900 listed games, some have multiple entries depending on their localization (French / German / English / US) and some have specific OCS/ECS, AGA, CD32 and CDTV entries.

In the end, the actual number of unique commercial games is probably below 4000 indeed.

(LemonAmiga lists 3627 commercial games)

Well anyway, the Amiga has more commercial software than the ST, if you search in Atarimania.

Commercial titles with the compilations expelled from the list you get 5801 titles (it's too complicated to filter per title and exclude the language), on the same search on Atarimania you get 4971 titles).

There are 830 titles gap between each machine.

[Keops/Equinox]

HOL: 3900


Lemon: 3627


Mobygames: 3893


dlfrsilver: 6900


Do you have a link to that list of 3000 missing commercial games?

[dlfrsilver]

Originally Posted by Keops/Equinox

HOL: 3900


Lemon: 3627


Mobygames: 3893


dlfrsilver: 6900


Do you have a link to that list of 3000 missing commercial games?

You're right, i took the all number of HOL, the real number is indeed 3900 titles.

Based on No unreleased games, commercial and no compilation.

But this doesn't change my original affirmation. There are more commercial titles on Amiga than on ST/STE/Falcon030.

Try to get the no compilation, no unreleased titles and commercial for ST, and you will see the number going down from 4971.

[Keops/Equinox]

Dlfrsilver: nobody claimed otherwise, we all know that more games were released on Amiga machines in the long run, nothing new here.

The problem is that your numbers are wrong (6900)

[TCD]

Originally Posted by Keops/Equinox

HOL lists 3900 released commercial games that are not compilations. I totally trust HOL to have it right, even if there might be a few games missing.

We try. One 'problem' is that there are still 'new old' games that are found in 2023. Here are three examples: http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=113959 http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=113950 http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=113933

So to give a definite answer to the exact count (like it is mostly possible for consoles) is not really possible. Depending on your criteria it's most likely between 2500 and 3500 commerically released games (note that HOL counts name variations).

[Amigajay]

Originally Posted by TCD

We try. One 'problem' is that there are still 'new old' games that are found in 2023. Here are three examples: http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=113959 http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=113950 http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=113933

So to give a definite answer to the exact count (like it is mostly possible for consoles) is not really possible. Depending on your criteria it's most likely between 2500 and 3500 commerically released games (note that HOL counts name variations).

As i wrote above, i’m upto 3,100 unique commercial games not inc aga/cd32/cdtv duplicates or data-disks or educational titles (which also form part of that 3,900 on HOL) with another 250 to add that are problematic on the CD32 and any MIA games, my discs obviously don’t include post 96 Amiga CD games or games that need 030+/RTG/PPC etc

So my guesstimates at the stage i’m at is between 3,500 and 3,750 total commercial unique games upto the year 2000 for OG Amigas.

This number of course will be higher for the total count to include the 030+/RTG/PPC stuff, add 100-150+ to those totals.

[TCD]

Is your list available somewhere?

[Amigajay]

Originally Posted by TCD

Is your list available somewhere?

Its not a list, its a set of iso files for the CD32 i’ve worked on the last 3 years.

[Megalomaniac]

Why are there 'double entries' on Moby Games for the ST but not the Amiga? Atarimania has 2997 commercial games released in the UK (to eliminate multiple-language releases), but that includes budget reissues and magazine demos - the first 200-item page has 30 reissues (including the two 3D Pool reissues, both Mirror Images and Kixx) and 13 of those odd EDOS releases as duplicates, so if we assume that proportion to be typical we're looking at maybe 2300, so roughly half as many as the Amiga - but as late as 1992 the numbers were very similar. In 1993 or beyond the ST still got (for a start) Civ, Chaos Engine, Cannon Fodder (a hopeless 'attempt' at it, though), Lemmings 2, Frontier, Ishar 2, Dynablaster, Goal!, B17, Premier Manager 2, Zool, and some STe or Falcon only stuff like Sleepwalker and Obsession - but by then the Amiga was dominant, and it lived on well for another 2-3 years.

[idrougge]

Originally Posted by Megalomaniac

In 1993 or beyond the ST still got (for a start) Civ, Chaos Engine, Cannon Fodder (a hopeless 'attempt' at it, though), Lemmings 2, Frontier, Ishar 2, Dynablaster, Goal!, B17, Premier Manager 2, Zool, and some STe or Falcon only stuff like Sleepwalker and Obsession - but by then the Amiga was dominant, and it lived on well for another 2-3 years.

I think you just summed up the entire Atari ST lineup for 1993. Reading the 1993 editions of Atari Action is like reading the 1996 editions of Amiga Action.

[Ranx]

Hello

I'm working on an article about "Batman the Movie" from Ocean.

So I confirm that originally the game was developed on Amiga. The ST images between levels are indeed a plus that the Amiga version does not have.

The game window is a bit smaller on Atari ST.

Originally the batmobile level was different between the ST and Amiga version. The first advertisements and some previews in magazines show this difference. The view on ST was on the side like level 2 on Total Recall or the view on Amstrad CPC while on Amiga the game was already seen from behind.

Génération 4 n°15 page 103

Génération 4 n°15 page 117

The bottom belt was not the same either, the graphic designer confirmed having redesigned it

Then the ST version was upgraded, but I don't know why these levels 2 were different between ST and Amiga and why they managed to do it on the Atari ST.

I wonder if there will still be a preview of this ST version with this side view, I searched but found nothing... too bad

[dlfrsilver]

Originally Posted by Ranx

Hello

I'm working on an article about "Batman the Movie" from Ocean.

So I confirm that originally the game was developed on Amiga. The ST images between levels are indeed a plus that the Amiga version does not have.

The game window is a bit smaller on Atari ST.

Originally the batmobile level was different between the ST and Amiga version. The first advertisements and some previews in magazines show this difference. The view on ST was on the side like level 2 on Total Recall or the view on Amstrad CPC while on Amiga the game was already seen from behind.

Génération 4 n°15 page 103

Génération 4 n°15 page 117

The bottom belt was not the same either, the graphic designer confirmed having redesigned it

Then the ST version was upgraded, but I don't know why these levels 2 were different between ST and Amiga and why they managed to do it on the Atari ST.

I wonder if there will still be a preview of this ST version with this side view, I searched but found nothing... too bad

Thanks for confirming what i said way above

[Megalomaniac]

Interesting stuff. Do we know whether the Amiga version designers considered how easy it would be to port to the ST (and, indeed, the 8-bits - I know most film licenses were designed around gameplay elements which could be done on Spec/Ams/C64 as well, at least as late as 1990)?

[ImmortalA1000]

Whilst they did an impressive job of scrolling the Amstrad screen as usual it has been shrunk so much you can barely see enough of what is above you to be as playable as the C64 version. Even worse though is the 2.5D driving/flying levels are the only thing that make this a great game on the 16bits, the 2D business they went with for the 8bit versions is a massive cop-out and nothing special, had the ST gone that way it sure as hell would not have prompted me to make this thread. It's a bit weird when Amstrad/Spectrum Chase HQ had a great programmer but the Amiga/ST got something that looks/runs like dirt compared to Batman on said 16bits. It's not like ST/Amiga Chase HQ even looks remotely like the arcade at any point in the game, it's like some 9 year old's efforts on Dpaint when you look at those horrible screen shots lol.

I think the Amiga version is fine, it's plenty good enough compared to everything 2.5D that came before. The Batmobile on those early Amiga screenshots looks different too I think. The coders who wrote the 2.5D routine on the ST/Amiga never did any other 2.5D games. Shame, it's a good routine. Look at garbage like Turbo OutRun, Cisco Heat etc. I wonder if the original programmers could be contacted to comment on why they never took their routine to other publishers/developers.

level 3 should never have been in the game, if you run out of ideas just forget it.