Games supporting 2 (ie. independent) fire buttons?

[SquawkBox]

Had one too many ? What about having one missing : Hired Guns (1993) (Psygnosis) does support three fire buttons from a modded joypad . Such feature is mentioned in the manual, plz scroll to page 27 (Joypad Controls section).
For what purpose ? Allow me to quote the manual :

This makes it much more convenient for manipulating items.

[SquawkBox]

I went through the docs and saw no trace whatsoever of 2nd fire button support in John Madden American Football (1992) (Electronic Arts)
also
concerning Crystal Kingdom Dizzy (1993) (Codemasters), I think you meant (WHDLoad)
also
2nd fire button support is possibly broken in the following games (I mean, in originals) :
a) Lionheart (1993) (Thalion)
b) Nigel Mansell's World Championship (1992) (Gremlin)
c) Lollypop (1995) (Rainbow Arts)

Why ?
Well, concerning Lionheart, in joypad mode, 1st fire button is used to jump and to draw the sword, meanwhile, 2nd fire button is inoperative (fixed in WHDLoad)
concerning World Championship, releasing 1st fire button (the accelerator) produces the same effect
Let me explain, one assumes by pressing 2nd fire button, he or she will use car's brakes but... once he or she releases the 1st button, the car decelerates like crazy, inasmuch pressing 2nd button seems totally optional (superfluous if you prefer)
As per Lollypop :
In joypad mode, taking a picture is assigned to 1st fire button, meanwhile, no lollypop throwing is possible anymore
In joystick mode, lollypop throwing is assigned to 1st fire button, meanwhile, no picture taking is possible anymore, if that makes sense
Lollypop is an interesting case, because the manual mentions Gravis joypad support, should the player want to use all four buttons properly (good luck to find one of these though)
So... I decided to put my German googles, jumped to page 6, and read :

Gravis Game Pad

• Red -> To throw a lollypop
• Yellow -> To jump
• Green -> To take a picture
• Blue -> to ... can someone help translate ? Pressing Blue will have Lolly "bettrit einen unterlevel" to duck maybe ?

And there's more...
It seems, using a Mega Drive game pad (behind an adapter such as the Open C64 / Amiga adapter) serves some purpose, after all.
For the following games :

• B.C. Kid
• Tony & Friends In Kellogg's Land
• Desert Strike (yup, that one too)

It seems the 2nd fire button from a resistor-less joypad or joystick is inoperative (well, technically, you may jump once in Tony & Friends and then... nothing). I am talking about typical MD pad VS typical SMS pad situation. Of course, I can't predict what would happen with a modern custom pad.

Oh, and thanks for the offer to register on your forum, but it's more convenient for me to post here, at least for the time being. Happy new year, and happy 2nd (or 3rd or 4th) button smashing !

[Solo Kazuki]

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

I went through the docs and saw no trace whatsoever of 2nd fire button support in John Madden American Football (1992) (Electronic Arts)
also
concerning Crystal Kingdom Dizzy (1993) (Codemasters), I think you meant (WHDLoad)
also
2nd fire button support is possibly broken in the following games (I mean, in originals) :
a) Lionheart (1993) (Thalion)
b) Nigel Mansell's World Championship (1992) (Gremlin)
c) Lollypop (1995) (Rainbow Arts)

Why ?
Well, concerning Lionheart, in joypad mode, 1st fire button is used to jump and to draw the sword, meanwhile, 2nd fire button is inoperative (fixed in WHDLoad)
concerning World Championship, releasing 1st fire button (the accelerator) produces the same effect
Let me explain, one assumes by pressing 2nd fire button, he or she will use car's brakes but... once he or she releases the 1st button, the car decelerates like crazy, inasmuch pressing 2nd button seems totally optional (superfluous if you prefer)
As per Lollypop :
In joypad mode, taking a picture is assigned to 1st fire button, meanwhile, no lollypop throwing is possible anymore
In joystick mode, lollypop throwing is assigned to 1st fire button, meanwhile, no picture taking is possible anymore, if that makes sense
Lollypop is an interesting case, because the manual mentions Gravis joypad support, should the player want to use all four buttons properly (good luck to find one of these though)
So... I decided to put my German googles, jumped to page 6, and read :

Gravis Game Pad

• Red -> To throw a lollypop
• Yellow -> To jump
• Green -> To take a picture
• Blue -> to ... can someone help translate ? Pressing Blue will have Lolly "bettrit einen unterlevel" to duck maybe ?

And there's more...
It seems, using a Mega Drive game pad (behind an adapter such as the Open C64 / Amiga adapter) serves some purpose, after all.
For the following games :

• B.C. Kid
• Tony & Friends In Kellogg's Land
• Desert Strike (yup, that one too)

It seems the 2nd fire button from a resistor-less joypad or joystick is inoperative (well, technically, you may jump once in Tony & Friends and then... nothing). I am talking about typical MD pad VS typical SMS pad situation. Of course, I can't predict what would happen with a modern custom pad.

Oh, and thanks for the offer to register on your forum, but it's more convenient for me to post here, at least for the time being. Happy new year, and happy 2nd (or 3rd or 4th) button smashing !

And that's the problem, if You don't have resistor value on pin is "floating", it means it could have any value between minimum and maximum. It can cause problems as You described.
Almost every (if not every, I couldn't check it now) game which You mentioned are working fine with right controller - Lionheart and B.C. Kid have jump on 2nd, Desert Strike change weapon, etc.
And what about Crystal Kingdom Dizzy? When You lastly check my list on PPA? Because I found it and corrected it few days ago, also klaxon was added in Super Skidmarks and some other minor changes.
Of Course You can write here, and if Sunchild come back he'll probably add this. I can only modify my list on PPA.

[SquawkBox]

All right, I missed Dizzy entry modification, sorry about that. I check it on a regular basis but sometimes just to check a particular entry, I seldom check it from top to bottom regularly. Thanks for completing it with car's horn in Skidmarks. You may add to that transformation into a more powerful ship in Powder and spin around in Whizz .

I also mentioned earlier on a game that should be included in that list on PPA according to manual : Hired Guns. And Madden is still mentioned, why ? IMHO, the latter doesn't support 2nd fire button (not a matter of right or wrong controller), I'll argue it just isn't implemented in this game at all (although I must admit I didn't learn how to play the game). Same with Deluxe Galaga. Maybe I am wrong, but I fail to see why a second button would serve any purpose for such a rudimentary shmup (even with those nifty enhancements that made said coverware a huge hit).

One thing I am sure of, you don't own the Gravis joypad (I guess it has become very rare item), that implies you don't have the right controller for at least one (1) game, and that game is Lollypop !

What I said about World Championship cannot be checked with a pad in hands. I was wondering if the 2nd fire button is implemented at all. Why ? Because releasing the 1st fire button acts as if you were pulling the brakes. Code must be examined to answer that one (provided it's something you're curious about, if for you the "feeling" of using the brakes is enough, fine by me!), so yeah I think the devs didn't bother with 2nd fire button implementation despite featuring it in the menu, but cannot ascertain it myself.

As per XP8 -ECS version- (again, in original), I don't think you can toggle weapons with second button press (maybe it is different with a CD32 pad, I cannot tell... yet, maybe I will order one despite the high price). Please try with a couple of you own pads. That aspect of the game was fixed in WHDLoad. Most likely, the developers didn't complete their task (even if you hit space bar, there is a sound, but no toggling of weapons occurs).

In an ideal situation, options must be set in a certain way. That way, your ship gets equipped with the weapons from latest power up automagically. So I'll give a small tip to peeps, if that's Ok with you : Set Game Difficulty to Easy (it will only affect the number of hits enemy ships can take), Auto Weapon Select to On, and Power Up change to Shoot, then the game becomes playable and (almost) enjoyable, and furthermore you don't have to worry about the omissions of developers, as per weapons toggling implementation.

[Solo Kazuki]

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

All right, I missed Dizzy entry modification, sorry about that. I check it on a regular basis but sometimes just to check a particular entry, I seldom check it from top to bottom regularly. Thanks for completing it with car's horn in Skidmarks. You may add to that transformation into a more powerful ship in Powder and spin around in Whizz .

I also mentioned earlier on a game that should be included in that list on PPA according to manual : Hired Guns. And Madden is still mentioned, why ? IMHO, the latter doesn't support 2nd fire button (not a matter of right or wrong controller), I'll argue it just isn't implemented in this game at all (although I must admit I didn't learn how to play the game). Same with Deluxe Galaga. Maybe I am wrong, but I fail to see why a second button would serve any purpose for such a rudimentary shmup (even with those nifty enhancements that made said coverware a huge hit).

One thing I am sure of, you don't own the Gravis joypad (I guess it has become very rare item), that implies you don't have the right controller for at least one (1) game, and that game is Lollypop !

What I said about World Championship cannot be checked with a pad in hands. I was wondering if the 2nd fire button is implemented at all. Why ? Because releasing the 1st fire button acts as if you were pulling the brakes. Code must be examined to answer that one (provided it's something you're curious about, if for you the "feeling" of using the brakes is enough, fine by me!), so yeah I think the devs didn't bother with 2nd fire button implementation despite featuring it in the menu, but cannot ascertain it myself.

As per XP8 -ECS version- (again, in original), I don't think you can toggle weapons with second button press (maybe it is different with a CD32 pad, I cannot tell... yet, maybe I will order one despite the high price). Please try with a couple of you own pads. That aspect of the game was fixed in WHDLoad. Most likely, the developers didn't complete their task (even if you hit space bar, there is a sound, but no toggling of weapons occurs).

In an ideal situation, options must be set in a certain way. That way, your ship gets equipped with the weapons from latest power up automagically. So I'll give a small tip to peeps, if that's Ok with you : Set Game Difficulty to Easy (it will only affect the number of hits enemy ships can take), Auto Weapon Select to On, and Power Up change to Shoot, then the game becomes playable and (almost) enjoyable, and furthermore you don't have to worry about the omissions of developers, as per weapons toggling implementation.

Really? Instruction is for PC, because Gravis Gamepad is for PC. Amiga specific stuff is in reference card here.
http://hol.abime.net/hol_pic.php?id=...5ZV2RwWTJzPQ==

And again, everything is working ok with my all, even weirdest one, controllers. If something is not working with WHDLoad versions I'm doing bugreport, which can be confirmed by any of WHDLoad Team (i suppose).

One request at the end: please check everything more precisely.

Edit: I'm searching in Hired Guns instruction on HoL for multi button control options and cannot found it. I'm curious what additional buttons change in game control. Could You tell me where is this additional buttons control described?

[SquawkBox]

It's mentioned in the manual, jump to page 27. Grab the PDF from here :
https://retro-commodore.eu/files/dow...iik.net/Games/
Each of the three buttons is supposed to act as the mouse pointer in various panels. Good luck!

To take a picture in Lollypop, one must press both buttons simultaneously. Maybe it is mentioned in the reference card you linked, but I can't read German so I had to find that info some place else. Pressing the second button on its own doesn't do anything apparently. Anyway, not needed to complete the game. Gravis also made its 4-button gamepad for the Amiga & the ST, but point taken, these instructions apply to the DOS version.

If you plan to test John Madden Football & Deluxe Galaga -ECS version- some more, it would be nice to let us know what the second fire button is supposed to do for each of these games. As I said, I don't think it is implemented, but I could be wrong.

[Solo Kazuki]

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

It's mentioned in the manual, jump to page 27. Grab the PDF from here :
https://retro-commodore.eu/files/dow...iik.net/Games/
Each of the three buttons is supposed to act as the mouse pointer in various panels. Good luck!

Good luck with finding someone with such modification. This is case which I've mentioned before with 4 buttons. It's neither 3 button nor CD32 standard compatible. Also Flashback have similar (but not the same!) 4 buttons control system. Added to list it can do more mess than it's worth, because someone could tell it shouldn't be on list.
I must think if this should be added, for now I'm not planning add Hired Guns.

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

Deluxe Galaga -ECS version- some more, it would be nice to let us know what the second fire button is supposed to do for each of these games. As I said, I don't think it is implemented, but I could be wrong.

Please, are You really have problems with reading guide added to Deluxe Galaga? Or You're just too lazy?
And It's not about 2nd button but CD32 standard joypad control.

[SquawkBox]

Originally Posted by Solo Kazuki

Or You're just too lazy?

I prefer being lazy (to procrastinate to be more precise, something each of us practice to some extend) than someone knowledgeable about electronics making up stories about games that are supposed to support 2nd fire button, when clearly it is not the case e.q. what you did with John Madden Football . And anyway, it's being (presumably) lazy versus what ? Depreciating your contradictors observations as if you were on a mission or something ? If you read again my second post about Deluxe Galaga, I've unearthed the part from the online docs about the controls :

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

I see that Deluxe Galaga is still mentioned in your list. Please check this link :
https://web.archive.org/web/20201026...cs/default.htm

Of course, I noticed the CD32 was put to use. Generally speaking, most people expect jump or smartbomb when it comes to games featured in such a list as per 2nd fire button support... in one word, in-game stuff. Now there's no hurry, but the use of CD32 controls as a substitute to a mouse pointer is something different in nature, and I think it should be mentioned in that case, even if the game does not belong to the CD32 catalog.

Originally Posted by Solo Kazuki

I must think if this should be added

No need to lose oneself in reasoning IMHO, but as you see fit. Meanwhile, consider adding the following, which hopefully shouldn't be subject to any debate or controversy :

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

You may add to that transformation into a more powerful ship in Powder and spin around in Whizz.

also, to kick with after-touch effect in Total Football

[Solo Kazuki]

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

what you did with John Madden Football

Do You see it on my list on PPA?
It's not my addition, bear that. Someone give that game so ask him, not me. So, please ask someone who propose this game add to list. Overall I'm not fan of "e-sports", and specially football in any kind. Maybe except Brutal Football, MUDS, etc. That's why on my list hardly any kind of football have explanation. So they are games for You to check.

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

Depreciating your contradictors observations as if you were on a mission or something?

Really? I cannot threat this text seriously. So... Yes, I'm.
And what You can depreciate with such many mistakes?

[Solo Kazuki]

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

Well, concerning Lionheart, in joypad mode, 1st fire button is used to jump and to draw the sword, meanwhile, 2nd fire button is inoperative

It works as it should for me, 1st is attack, 2nd is jump. Did You change to 2 buttons in options?

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

concerning World Championship, releasing 1st fire button (the accelerator) produces the same effect
Let me explain, one assumes by pressing 2nd fire button, he or she will use car's brakes but... once he or she releases the 1st button, the car decelerates like crazy, inasmuch pressing 2nd button seems totally optional (superfluous if you prefer)

Let me guess, You checked it with automatic transmission? So now change to manual transmission and check again. Any difference?

[SquawkBox]

I checked again. The second button works (in doubt, keep pressing the accelerate button, pressing the brakes button at the same time will have the car slowing down rapidly), the feature I described doesn't affect second button support, it just makes releasing the accelerate button and using the brakes very similar in how they affect car's behaviour. No difference in manual transmission mode. Well, there is a difference, it makes the game less pleasant to play IMHO because of the need to shift in higher gear again and again after a steep turn.

Hey, I thought about something... Maybe you could add to your list (or to an appendix to that list) unofficial CD32 ports. As you probably know, a majority among these games were patched to support CD32 pad additional buttons by mapping keyboard commands. e.q. here's what earok & co did with Moonstone :
https://unofficial-cd32-ports.blogsp...moonstone.html

[Solo Kazuki]

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

I checked again. The second button works (in doubt, keep pressing the accelerate button, pressing the brakes button at the same time will have the car slowing down rapidly), the feature I described doesn't affect second button support, it just makes releasing the accelerate button and using the brakes very similar in how they affect car's behaviour. No difference in manual transmission mode. Well, there is a difference, it makes the game less pleasant to play IMHO because of the need to shift in higher gear again and again after a steep turn.

It's working for me as it should. Did You chose 2 buttons control in options menu?
In some games You must activate 2 buttons mode, e.g. in options.

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

Hey, I thought about something... Maybe you could add to your list (or to an appendix to that list) unofficial CD32 ports. As you probably know, a majority among these games were patched to support CD32 pad additional buttons by mapping keyboard commands. e.q. here's what earok & co did with Moonstone :
https://unofficial-cd32-ports.blogsp...moonstone.html

That's indeed good idea... but maybe in next update.

[SquawkBox]

It's working as it should, with both MD joypads & that smelly SMS joystick I had ordered a few weeks ago. I know about two buttons mode, it can be obtained by choosing 4th controller config in this game. I was merely arguing about the way the devs implemented deceleration upon release of the gas pedal. It is too sudden for my taste (even if manual transmission mode, the car decelerates quickly AND shifting in lower gear occurs at the same time, not very realistic). Again, it's working as it should, those familiar with the game may ignore my comments about the game mechanisms.

Originally Posted by Solo Kazuki

It works as it should for me, 1st is attack, 2nd is jump. Did You change to 2 buttons in options?

Of course I did. I assume the devs simply didn't test Lionheart with a SMS pad in hands. I just ordered a PSX adapter from eBay, will let you know how it turns out with one of my Playstation controller plugged in.

[SquawkBox]

With MD pad, pressing 1st and 2nd fire buttons in Lionheart works as intended. With SMS pad (well, joystick), pressing 2nd button is inoperative, pressing first button draws the sword, releasing it makes Valdyn jump. Both tests conducted in joypad (2-button) mode.

[SquawkBox]

To run in NightBreed (it's the mini game which takes place when you first enter the Cemetery), one just has to use the normal fire button, no need for a 2nd fire button (never heard about that game before noticing its entry in your list btw). In fact, you can escape the vampire (the nightbreed) by activating autofire, and keeping that button pressed until done (got that trick from one of the reviews).

[Solo Kazuki]

I was thinking about this game (It's proposed by someone here), but actually game recognise 2nd button, no matter if this have same usage as 1st button. Same case is e.g. in Trap Runner, where both buttons are jump.

[SquawkBox]

Then may I suggest to keep those apart from the main list ? If you care about how people make use of your list (apparently you do), each entry should let them know about the comfort he or she may obtain from using a joypad with any of these games (typically).
Cloning of 1st fire button brings zero (0) additional comfort (well, except in the unlikely event someone uses a smashed pad with unresponsive buttons ). When you state that "2nd/Blue button" is assigned "to Run", unless the reader is familiar with said game, it could be interpreted as if 1st fire button was assigned to some other action, which is not the case in NightBreed.

[Solo Kazuki]

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

Then may I suggest to keep those apart from the main list ? If you care about how people make use of your list (apparently you do), each entry should let them know about the comfort he or she may obtain from using a joypad with any of these games (typically).
Cloning of 1st fire button brings zero (0) additional comfort (well, except in the unlikely event someone uses a smashed pad with unresponsive buttons ). When you state that "2nd/Blue button" is assigned "to Run", unless the reader is familiar with said game, it could be interpreted as if 1st fire button was assigned to some other action, which is not the case in NightBreed.

Well... similar to case here on which is based my list, it's usage of additional button, see Base Jumpers case. So It's using 2nd button? Yes. Other thing is to remove this run mention, which can be wrongly interpreted. I'm thinking about just adding "1st button is cloned to 2nd button" description.


And one more thing. I'm rather laic about football, but every football fan pal which I was asking to explain this either didn't know or said own interpretation (every gives different) of this:

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

also, to kick with after-touch effect in Total Football

What gives this in normal description, not slang one? One of pals even was asking if I'm not playing in one of Captain Tsubasa games.
Isn't that just volley shot?

[SquawkBox]

Directional shot, maybe ? Quoting the manual : "After touch is operated by holding down the button & moving the joystick in the direction you want the ball to go".
One also has the possibility to use both buttons together, that might be the volley shot : "Used to swipe at the ball, producing a big kick up the field, with little accuracy".
And then, when "2 Button Joystick +" config. type is selected :
- A back pass can be done by pressing twice the 1st fire button
- A lob can be done by pressing twice the 2nd fire button

Originally Posted by Solo Kazuki

Other thing is to remove this run mention, which can be wrongly interpreted.

With a touch of malice, "to outrun" could be used instead. During this mini game, our hero is depicted running from the start. In order to survive though, outrunning the Nightbreed is necessary, and this can be done by smashing 1st (or 2nd) fire button rapidly, as is normal practice in multi event sports games.

[SquawkBox]

Originally Posted by jotd

Just pick a game you like and check if whdload supports button 2 or/and 3.

Not many games offer that support natively and not in WHDLoad at this point I assume, but since you patched Cisco Heat I thought it would be nice if 2nd fire button support could be added to the game (to change gear) through an update of the slave.

@Solo Kazuki
I can't get the hero from Nathan Never (1993) (Genias) to do anything special when pressing 2nd fire button with my SMS joystick. Tried both the cracked version and the set of IPF's.