AGA emulation, PiStorm & Co.

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by grelbfarlk

Has anyone run UAE 68K lately?
How does this run on an 060 machine?
http://aminet.net/package/misc/emu/UAE-828-AOS68k

Too slow on a real 060 - but usable under UAE itself (M1 Mac using rosetta2 to execute FS-UEA for x86, in which UEA for 68k is running … )

[AmigaHope]

Originally Posted by hammer

Graffiti can display 256 colors with OCS/ECS 16-bit Chip RAM, and it's too bad Graffiti is not register compatible with AGA Lisa.

It's not possible for it to be register compatible because there are no registers to address. Graffiti isn't even accessible by the Amiga's bus. It's one of a class of devices that use the Amiga's little-used CGA/EGA-compatible digital RGBI output feature as a very fast communications link. (Other similar devices were HAM-E and DCTV)

The Graffiti is perfectly capable of working on EGA graphics cards, or on a Commodore 128D (or C128 with the 64k video ram expansion). Anything that has pixel-addressable 70ns RGBI modes.

[Korban]

Originally Posted by grelbfarlk

Has anyone run UAE 68K lately?
How does this run on an 060 machine?
http://aminet.net/package/misc/emu/UAE-828-AOS68k

I use it almost daily.
That version is very out of date though.
e-uae 0.8.29-3 is the latest.
On Amithlon using a core2duo@4.3ghz, which emulates an '040 at speeds of about a 4ghz '040 I get roughly 50mhz '030 type speeds when using 360x288x24 resolution (68k uae seems to scale unusually close to proportionately to resolution (ie. a 720x576x24 p96 screenmode is very, very close to stock a1200 speed)).

Earlier when I was saying a pistorm should be able to run aga stuff at about the speed of a stock a1200 I didnt pluck that out of a hat
It was based on about a decade of experience using 68k uae on various specced hardware.
On a 320x256x24 p96 screenmode it'd run very much in the ballpark of a stock a1200 on a pistorm (I created p96 modes equivalent to every custom chipset mode along with modes equivalent to max overscan modes, which is why I mentioned 360x288x24 above).

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by Korban

On a 320x256x24 p96 screenmode it'd run very much in the ballpark of a stock a1200 on a pistorm (I created p96 modes equivalent to every custom chipset mode along with modes equivalent to max overscan modes, which is why I mentioned 360x288x24 above).

With cycle-accurate 020 and AGA chipset emulation?

Someone with a PiStorm should be able to test this. Any takers?

[Korban]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

With cycle-accurate 020 and AGA chipset emulation?

There's no parallel to WinUAE's cycle-accurate cpu emulation with e-uae, but with the closest thing to it, and AGA, yes.

[grelbfarlk]

Nobody has a machine capable of running WinUAE, that's just nonsense talk of the ablecentrist.

[hammer]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

OP asked about running AGA games on the A500/A600/A2000, not on a PC or RPi.

Nope, OP wanted PiStorm/RPi 3a (or RPI Zero 2W) to handle AGA emulation on OCS/ECS Amigas. Hint: Read the topic's title.

Upon AGA program code detection, PiStorm/RPi 3a (or RPI Zero 2W) takes over Amiga chipset workload processing, but the physical Amiga chipset has connections to Amiga's user input ports.

PiStorm is just an adapter between the 68000 DIP socket and 40 pins GPIO from RPi 3a (or RPI Zero 2W). PiStorm is useless without the standalone RPi 3a (or RPI Zero 2W). RPi 3a can operate without the Amiga hardware.

Emu68-Raspi build will boot without the Amiga hardware, hence it's effectively DraCo.

Emu68-PiStorm build is with the Amiga hardware.

Amiga 500 can provide power for RPi 3a with ARM Linux installation.

You are wrong with "not RPi" when Emu68 (which provides services such as emulated 68K CPU, virtual P96 RTG card, virtual SCSI, custom 68040.library) is running on RPi.

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

There is no 'instead of'. WHDLoad can't magically make AGA games run on OCS machines - even as a 'single task'.

That's not the argument. It's well known in this topic that WHDload is NOT an emulator.

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

Most AGA games don't multitask, so any argument about 'sharing Amiga chipset resources in a multitasking situation' is a derail.

The derail is minor and not a big issue.

Unlike AMD GCN, the Amiga chipset wasn't designed with a command buffer pipeline to handle multiple context sequences and lacks virtual memory address functions. There are many Xbox One/PS4 GCN non-compute functions that are missing on the Amiga chipset.

-----------------

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

With cycle-accurate 020 and AGA chipset emulation?

Someone with a PiStorm should be able to test this. Any takers?

PiStorm is just an adaptor board for standalone RPI 3a or RPI Zero 2W. Emu68 and UAE performance is dependent on RPI 3a or RPI Zero 2W.

[hammer]

Originally Posted by AmigaHope

It's not possible for it to be register compatible because there are no registers to address. Graffiti isn't even accessible by the Amiga's bus. It's one of a class of devices that use the Amiga's little-used CGA/EGA-compatible digital RGBI output feature as a very fast communications link. (Other similar devices were HAM-E and DCTV)

The Graffiti is perfectly capable of working on EGA graphics cards, or on a Commodore 128D (or C128 with the 64k video ram expansion). Anything that has pixel-addressable 70ns RGBI modes.

I prefer AGA-capable Denise/Agnus drop-in replacement over Graffiti.

Graffiti's 3rd party software support is less than AGA.

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by hammer

Nope, OP wanted PiStorm/RPi 3a (or RPI Zero 2W) to handle AGA emulation on OCS/ECS Amigas. Hint: Read the topic's title.

Originally Posted by Supamax

Hi mates,
I'm very tempted by the PiStorm...
it's packed with interesting features, RTG graphics included, but again (as for the Vampire), I'm wondering if there's a way to emulate the AGA chipset so that playing AGA games would be possible on the A500/A600/A2000.

So can the PiStorm [pedant]with an RPi installed, running PiStorm software[/pedant] do it? Yes or No. If no then it is not a solution.

PiStorm is just an adapter between the 68000 DIP socket and 40 pins GPIO from RPi 3a (or RPI Zero 2W). PiStorm is useless without the standalone RPi 3a (or RPI Zero 2W).

Wow! I never knew that.

You bring up a good point though. It pisses me off to see the PiStorm being touted as an ultra low-cost solution that you can get for as little as $13. In reality they cost a lot more than that, and of course to complete the device you need an RPi as well. Reminds me of the old joke about 'Instant Water' - just add water!

You are wrong with "not RPi" when Emu68 (which provides services such as emulated 68K CPU, virtual P96 RTG card, virtual SCSI, custom 68040.library) is running on RPi.

Emu68-tools

The idea behind Emu68 is to create a bare metal low level virtual m68k machine which is not so strictly bound to the underlying hardware. As simple as it sounds, such approach has several drawbacks. The software running on m68k has no knowledge about memory layout, peripherals available to the system or even the hardware it is running on.

That's not the argument. It's well known in this topic that WHDload is NOT an emulator.

Not an emulator? Wow, I didn't know that either!

Unlike AMD GCN, the Amiga chipset wasn't designed with a command buffer pipeline to handle multiple context sequences and lacks virtual memory address functions. There are many Xbox One/PS4 GCN non-compute functions that are missing on the Amiga chipset.

More worthless information.

Emu68 and UAE performance is dependent on RPI 3a or RPI Zero 2W.

Wow! Who would have thunk it?

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by grelbfarlk

Nobody has a machine capable of running WinUAE, that's just nonsense talk of the ablecentrist.

Well somebody is talking nonsense. Care to explain what you mean by that statement?

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by hammer

I prefer AGA-capable Denise/Agnus drop-in replacement over Graffiti.

Graffiti's 3rd party software support is less than AGA.

No kidding.

It will be interesting to see how compatible 'AGA-capable Denise/Agnus' is in practice. How many AGA titles expect to see at least a 14MHz 020 as well?

If the price is reasonable I will definitely look at buying one when they become available.

[Supamax]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

If the price is reasonable I will definitely look at buying one when they become available.

Me too

[Supamax]

Originally Posted by Korban

68k version of EUAE [...]

I don't get the purpose of EUAE...
On what occasion should somebody need to use WinUAE running on a 68K Amiga?
Not for playing with old games, since there's WHDLoad...

[Korban]

Originally Posted by Supamax

I don't get the purpose of EUAE...
On what occasion should somebody need to use WinUAE running on a 68K Amiga?
Not for playing with old games, since there's WHDLoad...

Running AGA software on ECS machines that have RTG of course.

I dont get your confusion.
Surely the thread topic/title makes it abundantly clear?

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by Supamax

I don't get the purpose of EUAE...
On what occasion should somebody need to use WinUAE running on a 68K Amiga?
Not for playing with old games, since there's WHDLoad...

The theory is that you could run UAE on an OCS Amiga with RTG to emulate an AGA Amiga for playing AGA games. This would require a very fast CPU, faster than an 80MHz 060 and possibly even faster than a V4 Vampire.

Enter PiStorm, which claims to be much faster than any real Amiga. The only question is - what will the actual performance be in this configuration? Anybody with a PiStorm should easily be able to tell us...

[Thomas Richter]

That does not make too much sense. AGA graphics is only planar, with up to 8 bitplanes. RTG graphics can do planar, but only up to 4 planes, or chunky. Thus, emulating AGA with RTG would either limit you to 4 bitplanes (which does not make much sense) or an always running, costly planar to chunky conversion. Also, for emulating the copper, RTG would need to run in true-color or hi-color mode to offer sufficient colors, IOWs, even more conversions needed.

[Promilus]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

The theory is that you could run UAE on an OCS Amiga with RTG to emulate an AGA Amiga for playing AGA games. This would require a very fast CPU, faster than an 80MHz 060 and possibly even faster than a V4 Vampire.

Enter PiStorm, which claims to be much faster than any real Amiga. The only question is - what will the actual performance be in this configuration? Anybody with a PiStorm should easily be able to tell us...

Yes but that's only assuming someone wants to create 68k-based in-system AGA emulation software. That would be a PITA for development and implementation. But... it's fairly possible (while I do not think it is wise) to do it Vampire's way. On startup chose whether you want to play with on-board chipset or try the one on turbo card. So when off-board is chosen PiStorm RPi-side software can emulate AGA chipset @ ARM directly. But of course that would invalidate on-board chipset. At least graphics & sound.

[Supamax]

Originally Posted by Korban

Running AGA software on ECS machines that have RTG of course.

Whoops! It wasn't that complicated...

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

The theory is that you could run UAE on an OCS Amiga with RTG to emulate an AGA Amiga for playing AGA games. This would require a very fast CPU, faster than an 80MHz 060 and possibly even faster than a V4 Vampire.

Thanks :-).

I'm wondering though: apart from that reason, when can EUAE be useful?

[Tigerskunk]

Originally Posted by grelbfarlk

What exactly is the MIPS cost of emulating AGA vs ECS in an emulator? Put a number on it, like 15 68K MIPS?

Depends on if the CPU is Milspec or Astrospec...

[hammer]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

So can the PiStorm [pedant]with an RPi installed, running PiStorm software[/pedant] do it? Yes or No. If no then it is not a solution.

Refer Apollo-computer's FireBird V4 as an example.

For OP's question, Emu68's author needs to copy FireBird V4's workload division between FPGA AGA (graphics and sound) and native Amiga input and floppy controller pathways.

Both FireBird V4 and Emu68/PiStorm interface the 68000 DIP socket.


[ Show youtube player ]
FireBird V4's FPGA AGA features for Amiga 500. At this point, Amiga 500 is reduced as a user input device.

FireBird v4's FPGA AGA feature takes over Amiga 500's chipset's graphics and sound roles during boot up.

[ Show youtube player ]
This video demonstrates an Amiga 500 emulated using Amiberry with USB PC Floppy Drive modified with a Rob Smith Arduino and booting Workbench and Games (Buggy Boy demonstrated in video).
I can do the same something with a Ryzen U series laptop with HDMI FreeSync (targeting 50 hz PAL).

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

Wow! I never knew that.

You bring up a good point though. It pisses me off to see the PiStorm being touted as an ultra low-cost solution that you can get for as little as $13.

Only for DIY PiStorm builds.

I brought my preconfigured PiStorm Rev B Max II/boxed RPI 3a/32 GB microSD for about $105 USD ($162 AUD) from Poland.

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

In reality they cost a lot more than that, and of course to complete the device you need an RPi as well. Reminds me of the old joke about 'Instant Water' - just add water!

Wake me up when Vampire v2+ or FireBird V4 reaches $105 USD.

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

Emu68-tools

Not an emulator? Wow, I didn't know that either!

More worthless information.

Wow! Who would have thunk it?

I'm making my position clear about WHDLoad's capabilities.

YOU have injected the USELESS WHDLoad's AGA emulation into this topic, NOT ME.

DON'T ASSUME.
DON'T PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH.