Dungeon Master Custom Dungeons

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by meynaf

Seems we're quite OT here

Yes, but I have only one more thing to add, so unless you have more?

Originally Posted by meynaf

but large buffers can't do the trick - you don't want a monster scream happen several seconds after the attack, do you ?

With large circular buffers you can just write data into the buffers at the appropriate locations and it just gets played. All you have to do is make sure to clear the data afterwards. Probably a silly idea.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Thorham

With large circular buffers you can just write data into the buffers at the appropriate locations and it just gets played. All you have to do is make sure to clear the data afterwards. Probably a silly idea.

I'm ready to bet the OS, or maybe the audio driver, will make a copy of the data when the buffer is submitted.

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by meynaf

I'm ready to bet the OS, or maybe the audio driver, will make a copy of the data when the buffer is submitted.

Yeah, maybe. Makes me wonder what it takes to get it right. Current and recent games seem to have no problem with playing sound effects at the right time without glitches.

Anyway, any new dungeons you're working on?

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Thorham

Anyway, any new dungeons you're working on?

Not really. I haven't touched any dungeon since quite a long time, actually. Only noted a few vague ideas from time to time.

[Thorham]

How hard would it be to get the Conflux 3 dungeon running?

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Thorham

How hard would it be to get the Conflux 3 dungeon running?

Quite difficult, as it uses csbwin extensions which are not very well documented.

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by meynaf

Quite difficult, as it uses csbwin extensions which are not very well documented.

Yeah, I think I asked this once before years ago

Anyway, that's it then. Disappointing that Aros doesn't support a basic feature like opening screens properly. Wonder what's going on there.

[RogerS]

Hi,

I decided to give dmcsb a try with the original dungeon.

I picked the first champion I came across (Iaido) for reincarnation and entered the dungeon, playing until the beginning of level 2 (when counting HOC as level 0).

What I quickly noticed is that experience and level gain seemed noticeably slower than I remembered from the original Amiga version, and also that I wasn't gaining priest levels when using war cry against screamers (I later saw that you had disabled that when reading through this thread, so it's fine although I personally disagree with that decision).

With my recent solo run of reincarnated Tiggy straight into CSB fresh in mind, I decided to reincarnate Tiggy and import her into CSB for a test run in dmcsb.

At the start of my reincarnated Tiggy in CSB run on the Amiga version, I remember casting one successful Lo Ful torch which immediately gained me a wizard level, one failed torch, then another successful torch which gained me yet another wizard level.

When I tried the same in the CSB dungeon in dmcsb, I cast 4 or 5 failed Lo Ful torches before I finally cast a successful one and gained a wizard level. After I escaped the worms at the start and started training, level gain felt noticeably slower here as well compared to my Amiga run. It might even have been a bigger difference between the original and dmcsb in CSB than it was in DM.

I decided to do a direct comparison run between dmcsb and the original Amiga version on how many torch spells it would take reincarnated Tiggy to gain the first wizard level at the stairs on level 1 in DM just below the Hall Of Champions.

How to read these results:
1 is success, 0 is spell failed, R is rest to regain full mana, + is gained a level.

dmcsb:
Attempt 1:
110110R011110R111+
Total: 15
Success: 11
Failed: 4

Attempt 2:
100111R010101R1111+
Total: 16
Success: 11
Failed: 5

Attempt 3:
100101R110100R010000R0+
Total: 19
Success: 7
Failed: 12

original:
Attempt 1:
001101R0100+
Total: 10
Success: 4
Failed: 6

Attempt 2:
111010R100+
Total: 9
Success: 5
Failed: 4

Attempt 3:
110010R1001+
Total: 10
Success: 5
Failed: 5

Based on this (albeit small) sample size, it takes an average of 16.6 torch spells to reach neophyte wizard in dmcsb and 9.6 torch spells in the original.

Was this done intentionally, or was it an unintended side effect of trying to make your custom dungeons harder?

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by RogerS

Was this done intentionally, or was it an unintended side effect of trying to make your custom dungeons harder?

Neither. Shouldn't happen if you test same dungeon at both sides, but it could be a version difference.
Which one is the Amiga version you used ?

[RogerS]

Originally Posted by meynaf

Neither. Shouldn't happen if you test same dungeon at both sides, but it could be a version difference.
Which one is the Amiga version you used ?

Amiga DM version was 3.6

[Aardvark]

This is a difference between Atari ST and Amiga versions (both 3.6 and original)

I always get ninja level right after reincarnating. On Amiga it takes about 20 throws with Halk's club to gain first level, but on ST (tested on 1.0 and 1.3 version) you don't level up even after 70 throws.

[RogerS]

Originally Posted by Aardvark

This is a difference between Atari ST and Amiga versions (both 3.6 and original)

I always get ninja level right after reincarnating. On Amiga it takes about 20 throws with Halk's club to gain first level, but on ST (tested on 1.0 and 1.3 version) you don't level up even after 70 throws.

You're right.


I just tested in CSBWin, and to reach neophyte wizard it took 15 and 17 casts respectively of Lo Ful to reach neophyte wizard, which is in line with what I saw in dmcsb.


To reach neophyte ninja, I had to throw a club against the stairs 72 times in both CSBWin and dmcsb, while I only had to throw it 18 times in the Amiga version.


That's a massive difference! 4 times as many throws required to gain the first ninja level.


It's weird that ninja experience gain is 4 times slower while wizard experience gain is only about 60% slower.



Do you think you'd perhaps be willing to do something about this to bring it more in line with the Amiga version meynaf?

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by RogerS

Do you think you'd perhaps be willing to do something about this to bring it more in line with the Amiga version meynaf?

I suppose, but i'm afraid this would imbalance the game and make some dungeons just too easy.

[RogerS]

Originally Posted by meynaf

I suppose, but i'm afraid this would imbalance the game and make some dungeons just too easy.

I was worried that might be the case.

That's fine then since it's the same as in the Atari version and any version based on that (like CSBWin/CSBLinux). It means future runs through DM and CSB would be a bit more tedious/challenging if I'm to use your version. Especially since I can't use war cry to gain the initial priest levels, something that makes certain champions almost unviable.

Would you maybe be willing to reconsider war cry in regards to priest experience? I know there are others who agree with me.

For the argument that "shouting" shouldn't have any magical effects, there are ways of using your ways even in real life (OM chants and similar) that certain people claim have non-physical effects so using ones voice in certain ways for magical benefits in a fantasy setting is certainly not far fetched.

In other fantasy settings you have for example the various shouts in Skyrim, and in D&D and the like spells often have verbal incantations.

If your reservation is that actions shouldn't give experience in multiple classes, how about making it only give priest experience instead (which also brings it in line with other actions with the same effect)?

By the way, did you fix the bug where dragons can't be harmed by poison bolts (even Mon strength ones) even though they can be harmed by poison clouds?
https://www.dungeon-master.com/forum...163785#p163785
If not, could you fix it please? It doesn't make sense to have them immune to poison bolts when they can certainly be harmed or even outright killed (like the weak dragons in the Ros path fake walls section of CSB) by poison clouds.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by RogerS

Would you maybe be willing to reconsider war cry in regards to priest experience? I know there are others who agree with me.

For the argument that "shouting" shouldn't have any magical effects, there are ways of using your ways even in real life (OM chants and similar) that certain people claim have non-physical effects so using ones voice in certain ways for magical benefits in a fantasy setting is certainly not far fetched.

In other fantasy settings you have for example the various shouts in Skyrim, and in D&D and the like spells often have verbal incantations.

If your reservation is that actions shouldn't give experience in multiple classes, how about making it only give priest experience instead (which also brings it in line with other actions with the same effect)?

There have been heated discussions on that subject.

Sure, chants are not too far-fetched.
But a barbarian with zero knowledge of magic, suddenly gaining spells out of nowhere just by shouting at monsters ? Are you sure ?

There is also the fact that this is some kind of game abuse, as it was designed to use wands/staffs for this thing - which i've always done while playing.

Originally Posted by RogerS

By the way, did you fix the bug where dragons can't be harmed by poison bolts (even Mon strength ones) even though they can be harmed by poison clouds?
https://www.dungeon-master.com/forum...163785#p163785
If not, could you fix it please? It doesn't make sense to have them immune to poison bolts when they can certainly be harmed or even outright killed (like the weak dragons in the Ros path fake walls section of CSB) by poison clouds.

I have fixed so many bugs present in original game, i don't remember.
That a dragon never receives any damage from this spell, regardless of its power, while sensitive to poison clouds, is indeed not great...
I'll have a look when i find enough time to get back into it. If not already fixed, i'll do.
I must be careful and not apply DM3.x changes blindly, as it appears they made this version a little too easy already...
So the damage made to other creatures must not really change with that patch.

[Aardvark]

Only thing I miss in DMCSB is "3D" audio. Amiga version chooses the audio channel based on direction the sfx originates, but DMCSB is mono like the ST version.

[RogerS]

Originally Posted by meynaf

I have fixed so many bugs present in original game, i don't remember.
That a dragon never receives any damage from this spell, regardless of its power, while sensitive to poison clouds, is indeed not great...
I'll have a look when i find enough time to get back into it. If not already fixed, i'll do.
I must be careful and not apply DM3.x changes blindly, as it appears they made this version a little too easy already...
So the damage made to other creatures must not really change with that patch.

Thank you.

Another quality of life request (unless it's too tedious to implement) is having 4 save slots like in CSBWin.

Originally Posted by Aardvark

Only thing I miss in DMCSB is "3D" audio. Amiga version chooses the audio channel based on direction the sfx originates, but DMCSB is mono like the ST version.

I second that. 3D sound would be nice.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Aardvark

Only thing I miss in DMCSB is "3D" audio. Amiga version chooses the audio channel based on direction the sfx originates, but DMCSB is mono like the ST version.

It's not mono. It really does like Amiga version (probably with slightly different rules).

Originally Posted by RogerS

Another quality of life request (unless it's too tedious to implement) is having 4 save slots like in CSBWin.

I planned to handle it like DM2 but never found the motivation to actually do it.

Originally Posted by RogerS

I second that. 3D sound would be nice.

What ? Original program did it like the ST, but it's been there since quite a few versions.

[Aardvark]

Originally Posted by meynaf

It's not mono. It really does like Amiga version (probably with slightly different rules).

Amiga version: [ Show youtube player ]
DMSCB: [ Show youtube player ]

Every sfx in DMSC is equal on both channels, regardless of it's direction.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Aardvark

Every sfx in DMSC is equal on both channels, regardless of it's direction.

It is different, but more subtle than Amiga version which IIRC just mutes sounds.
Perhaps you can try more distant sounds.