09 July 2011, 17:11 | #1 |
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"Centering"
Hi Toni,
perhaps a stupid problem, but I noticed that in WinUAE 2.3.2 and 2.3.3 (all betas) the WB/games/programs screen is not horizontally centered any more. Notes: - I used Quickstart A500 for all tests, so it's not config-related - all WinUAE releases till 2.1.0 are fine (centered screen) - all programs I tried have the same "issue", so no need to attach config files or logs, I suppose... If you need a screenshot or more info let me know. |
09 July 2011, 18:32 | #2 | |
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Configuration and screenshots needed.. |
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10 July 2011, 00:32 | #3 | |
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It's just an example: all the programs I tested have the screen shifted to the right. I wouldn't know which config file to attach, because I'm using the default WinUAE config (clean install and no changes) and Quickstart (A500: KS 1.3, 512+512KB, OCS) ... Last edited by Supamax; 10 July 2011 at 01:49. |
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10 July 2011, 13:11 | #4 | |
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Real centering is not enabled by default (because it can't ever work 100% compatible) and most programs are not centered on real hardware either. |
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11 July 2011, 18:53 | #5 | |
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- I'm using NO filter or special config (just WinUAE with default config, Quickstart and fresh install just for testing). I swear it - I'm seeing this "shift" with WinUAE 2.3.2 and 2.3.3 - It's not "normal", since I've never seen it with any previous version (up to 2.1.0). And I'm a long date user... Why am I seeing it? Am I the only one? |
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11 July 2011, 18:59 | #6 | |
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EDIT: Maybe something changed but this is something I don't really care without much more information because "it is normal". Last edited by Toni Wilen; 11 July 2011 at 19:06. |
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11 July 2011, 19:08 | #7 | |
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And... if my request is not so stupid: wouldn't it be possible to make a version with a display behaviour similar to version 2.1.0 or older? P.S. I read now your EDIT. Ok, if it's not a simple change to WinUAE sources then don't consider my request P.S. 2 I'm a graphic artist, so it's only for aesthetical reasons that I don't like that shift to the right... |
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11 July 2011, 19:20 | #8 |
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Reason why it is "normal" is because most programs are never "correctly" centered on real Amigas! Generally fully centered is actually wrong..
Find the exact beta which changed this and I'll see if there is some real problem. (also try with null filter) |
11 July 2011, 19:27 | #9 | |||
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(the only thing I'm sure is that the change occurred between 2.1.0. and 2.3.2. Ok, I'll go searching the old posts, downloading the previous betas and testing) Quote:
Last edited by Supamax; 11 July 2011 at 19:33. |
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13 July 2011, 21:40 | #10 |
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Now checking all releases between 2.1.0 and 2.3.2...
Then I'll check betas Last edited by Supamax; 13 July 2011 at 21:52. |
14 July 2011, 01:37 | #11 | |
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I checked all betas between v2.3.1 and v2.3.2, and the first beta presenting the "issue" is beta 8 (Public Beta 8, 2011.05.28 RC1) (http://www.winuae.net/files/b/winuae_2320b8.zip). |
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16 July 2011, 21:59 | #12 |
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In order implement centering that resembles what you'd normally see on a regular Amiga monitor, WinUAE would have to emulate some of it's circuitry, and Toni just doesn't seem to be interested in spending so much time in something like this. Everything else will always be a mere approximation.
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16 July 2011, 22:09 | #13 | |
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Problem is that every TV is slightly different = there is no "standard", also winuae window is usually always wider than normal TV overscan, especially in corners (old CRT TV has rounded corners), when display becomes wider, it isn't possible to emulate real CRT behavior anymore. Another problem is that Amiga display is not "balanced", full overscan in right edge has less "hidden pixels" than left edge, this is the reason why display appears to move right when window gets bigger, more hidden pixels become visible in left edge. -> "it is normal". It is not normal to have fully centered chipset display. It is very rare. |
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16 July 2011, 23:02 | #14 |
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Personally I had regular interlaced RGB Commodore monitors in mind, not really TV's, though it's more or less the same thing. How about taking that Amiga monitor sitting in your desk as a reference and start from there? (no need to emulate all monitors with all there particular variants, just a popular one) You could begin by emulating some sort of "unfolded" flat screen with it's vertical dimension determined by the amount of even/odd lines, represent the triad arrangement with single computer pixels for the horizontal dimension, use a mask to cover what's to be hidden and see how it goes, then alternatively use a filter to shape that flat image into something more round and realistic. It may be a great a deal of work, but it's perfectly possible, all you really need is the correct specs, monitor knowledge and the real thing to compare it against.
On the top of that, you probably already know all there's to know about Amiga video hardware so that should speed things up, plus it wouldn't matter if the image isn't fully centered as long as it's not fully centered in a real monitor either |
17 July 2011, 11:39 | #15 | |
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Ah, that topic again.
Toni knows very well I'm also one of the "annoying" people that have always bugged him about centering But he's not the only one: Q: Currently the screen is off-center: come on, that just looks so ugly! Bernd Schmidt (original UAE developer): Shrug. Live with it. (from about 1998) Ignorant reactions everywhere... I'm not into graphics at all and I too have to state that an off-center screen is one of my pet hates. (since in my "philosophy" it can't be that you're doomed to use a (null) filter just to get the screen centered; this would just indicate that there IS an issue somewhere in modes with no filter at all that someone just didn't tackle because he thought it's pointless) Quote:
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17 July 2011, 12:04 | #16 |
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Nicely done as usual, andreas. Jumping to some random thread and writing some useless arguments, digging some irrelevant ancient posts, most likely not even testing anything at all, just jumping to conclusions.
And finally annoying everyone else in this thread that are actually trying to solve this problem (if it is even is a problem). More pointless arguments -> closed. |
17 July 2011, 12:17 | #17 | |
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Note that TV overscan area (image area that is hidden under bezel) can be 5-10% of whole display area, depending on TV.. There is no 100% exact settings just some average. -> Only way to confirm this once and for all is: everyone who have old 4:3 CRT TV, boot some "standard" boot disk to (for example some WB disk, boot to shell. MUST be confirmed identical image!), measure size of "border" area (each side) and size of display area. We don't need absolute units, just percentage of each border compared to cli window size, for example. Collect and analyze the results. |
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17 July 2011, 14:15 | #18 | |||
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17 July 2011, 16:09 | #19 |
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Hi mates,
what I'm saying is not that I want perfect centering etc. I only noticed (and then checked/verified all the betas, as Toni suggested me to do) that with default settings and with absolutely no particular configuration other that a Quickconfig and with no filters, the Amiga screen in WinUAE is better "centered" in versions up to 2.3.2 beta 7, and shifted to the right from 2.3.2 beta 8 onward. |
17 July 2011, 16:12 | #20 | ||
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Remember that we are not going to "center" the display (which is impossible), only trying to exactly position it, just like on real TVs. Quote:
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