How do you 'Amiga'

[petarku]

real joy : amiga 1200 connected to benq 15kz monitor for gaming
I am using fs uae to prepare sd card for a1200 and to test some software fast, do backup etc
mister fpga - this is planned to be daily amiga driver in the future but we will see. it has potential of RTG, connection to 15khz and hdmi , at the moment in the process to add it to empty amiga 600 case

[nikosidis]

Originally Posted by Daedalus

In fairness, this is probably due to your monitor and not WinUAE. Switching resolutions on real Amiga hardware with a more recent CRT than a 1084 or similar will also result in a black screen for a second or two as the monitor adjusts to the new input.

No, a CRT switch on the fly. With LCD it is different. The emulator can not switch resolutions as a real Amiga. Ask Tony, the maintainer of WinUAE. It is simply not possible.

[fxgogo]

He he he. True. I have been keen to focus on one or two systems and deep dive into them. My wife likes that situation as well.

[Anubis]

I can't be only one who does not miss small CRT screens?!

I love ability to play Amiga games on bigger screen than old 14" or 15" monitors.

[manossg]

For maximum Amiga joy, I fire up either my A500 w/ 1084S monitor for classic games or my lovely V4SA for NG games, productivity and 060 demos.

When I need the awesome options/improvements that the emulators provide (control remapping, save states), I use Amiberry or FS-UAE.

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by Anubis

I love ability to play Amiga games on bigger screen than old 14" or 15" monitors.

Me too, hence my CRTs go from 21 to 29"

[Daedalus]

Originally Posted by nikosidis

No, a CRT switch on the fly. With LCD it is different. The emulator can not switch resolutions as a real Amiga. Ask Tony, the maintainer of WinUAE. It is simply not possible.

Again, it depends on the CRT. Newer CRTs analyse the incoming signal digitally and adjust themselves to match. They have OSDs and presets for different resolutions, but blank when switching resolution until they get a lock on the signal. They *do not* switch on the fly unless their sync circuits are directly driven by the input, which is the case with more primitive monitors like the 1084. You'll just have to trust me on this; I've owned a few and used them with the Amiga. I'm well aware of how different CRTs behave because I've had to put up with that effect for years.

[nikosidis]

Originally Posted by Daedalus

Again, it depends on the CRT. Newer CRTs analyse the incoming signal digitally and adjust themselves to match. They have OSDs and presets for different resolutions, but blank when switching resolution until they get a lock on the signal. They *do not* switch on the fly unless their sync circuits are directly driven by the input, which is the case with more primitive monitors like the 1084. You'll just have to trust me on this; I've owned a few and used them with the Amiga. I'm well aware of how different CRTs behave because I've had to put up with that effect for years.

I have maybe 5 vga crt monitors, 2 Commodore monitors and 1 Sony Triniton TV + 2 panasonic 21" CRT TVs. Not a problem to switch res. on the fly with any of them. Many of the monitors, TVs are from the end of CRT production.

It helps little that emulators can not switch resolutions on the fly either.
That was first of all the talk here. Emulators can not do everything real Amiga hardware can. End of story from me.

[Daedalus]

TVs are a very different thing since unless they have HD support (pretty rare for a CRT), they only support a single resolution with minor adjustments, so naturally switching "resolutions" will be instant because the only thing that's changing is the representation of the resolution - the TV will see it as essentially the same resolution, so no surprises there. But of course I'm sure you already knew that.

I'd like to see your VGA CRTs switch resolution instantly though (and not just the same resolution in a different format, e.g. 320x256 -> 640x512, which emulation can also do instantly). Neither my Trinitron nor my Philips VGA monitors could do that - they both took a second or two to switch, so it'd be interesting to know that I just was unfortunate with my choices of monitors.

[Toni Wilen]

I have same experiences as Daedalus.

Amiga does not really switch resolutions (at least without VGA modes or RTG board) like PCs do where signal timing changes.

Horizontally pixel clock changes (lores/hires/shres) but signal timing stays exact same PAL or NTSC. Every display will do it instantly.

Vertically timing changes slightly (lace/non-lace), some digital displays (including at least some later CRTs) will need some time. Some LCDs hate non-laced mode (progressive mode that is technically not legal PAL/NTSC) and try to deinterlace, resulting in 25Hz/30Hz output. (It seems many manufacturers forgot that this was very popular mode back in the 80s). CRTs (at least pre-"HD" TV CRTs) handle this usually instantly because they are interlaced by design.

Only "real" resolution change is PAL/NTSC switch. Most later digital displays (including CRTs) will not switch 100% instantly.

But this has been solved problem since VRR monitors were introduced (gsync/freesync/hdmi2.1 vrr). VRR monitor can change refresh rates instantly (PAL/NTSC switch will be 100% instant).

Trying to sort of "match" Amiga resolution to nearest physical display resolution has never been too good idea (modern displays, especially if input is low resolution PAL/NTSC signal, usually create very bad quality image). Better method is to use native resolution and let GPU/emulator do the scaling = no need for "resolution" switches" and every mode change is instant.

Yes, resolution switch is never instant when using modern displays (HDMI 2.1 Quick Media Switching may fix it in the future). But resolution switching is not needed.

[nikosidis]

I tried one of my VGA, CRT monitors and there is a slight delay when I switch from PAL to NTSC screens.

I never seen a game, demo that switch from PAL to NTSC in a game or similar. Must be if you work with different programs but then the delay does not matter.

The starting point here is that Win-UAE or any emulator will introduce delay why switching screens.
Even the Vampire will do that. Try the Amiga pinball games when it go to high-res. interlaced.

Connect your VGA, CRT to Win-UAE or Vampire and try to do this:

Pal high-res. on workbench and Pal super-high res. interlaced on DOpus screen.

[ Show youtube player ]

[nikosidis]

Try this on your emulator and digital screen. PAL high-res on workbench and interlaced 640x512 interlaced, PPaint.

[ Show youtube player ]

[Toni Wilen]

This is different reason. I thought topic was modern displays being "slow" as in multiple second black screen.

Unfortunately software can't switch resolutions quickly, at least in Windows and it can also depend heavily on drivers. It is basically undefined. All the Direct3D etc re-initialization also takes relatively long time. It is not designed for on the fly seamless resolution switches. Sometimes it can happen quite quickly and sometimes it will be very slow. Emulation can't run stable during this time which causes sound glitches. This can't be worked around.

Also I don't think any digital video signal (at least pre-HDMI 2.1 QMS) can switch instantly without resync phase.

This is why I recommend that resolution should always match display native (or some smaller divided by integer value) and all the "resolution" changes should be software or hardware integer scaling operations (which works nicely with Amiga because resolutions are hardwired 1x, 2x and 4x). Physical display resolution should not be changed on the fly because it won't ever be seamless.

[Daedalus]

Originally Posted by nikosidis

Try this on your emulator and digital screen. PAL high-res on workbench and interlaced 640x512 interlaced, PPaint.

I'm not quite sure what you think happens when you do this on an emulator, but as explained above by both Toni and myself, what you're doing there isn't really switching resolutions as such, and will be instant on an emulator as well as on real hardware.

But, since you still probably don't believe me, here's a video. WinUAE full screen on my LCD monitor. Workbench is high res PAL and PPaint is 640x512 interlace.
[ Show youtube player ]

[nikosidis]

Ok, you are right. I was thinking wrong.
The first video I provided is switching resolutions.
Can you do that one?
I can still see that screen draging in your video is not as smooth or fast as on the real thing.

[nikosidis]

Very bad quality video and the LCD looks worse in real life regarding scrolling.
This is WinUAE 4.4.0 and LCD vs Stock A500 with CRT.

[ Show youtube player ]

[nikosidis]

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

This is different reason. I thought topic was modern displays being "slow" as in multiple second black screen.

Unfortunately software can't switch resolutions quickly, at least in Windows and it can also depend heavily on drivers. It is basically undefined. All the Direct3D etc re-initialization also takes relatively long time. It is not designed for on the fly seamless resolution switches. Sometimes it can happen quite quickly and sometimes it will be very slow. Emulation can't run stable during this time which causes sound glitches. This can't be worked around.

Also I don't think any digital video signal (at least pre-HDMI 2.1 QMS) can switch instantly without resync phase.

This is why I recommend that resolution should always match display native (or some smaller divided by integer value) and all the "resolution" changes should be software or hardware integer scaling operations (which works nicely with Amiga because resolutions are hardwired 1x, 2x and 4x). Physical display resolution should not be changed on the fly because it won't ever be seamless.

Topic is more like "what is the difference between the real thing and emulation".
Emulation is great and WinUAE is fantastic.
Before I went back to the real thing I messed around with emulation a lot. Just like the things you explain here Tony, it is very complicated. I never was happy with Amiga on digital screens and connecting WinUAE or Windows to a CRT was a mixed experience. I just gave up.

My advice to topic starter is to find a real Amiga 500 a CRT and a Gotek drive.
If you do not have space or money for a Commodore CRT a good alternative is to buy RGB2HDMI.
That way you have a very nice internal scaler and hdmi to your screen.
That is the best digital Amiga picture I seen. Even scrolling as I show in the video is smooth.
What is not as good with RGB2HDMI vs CRT is that it will loose some resolution when scrolling or maybe more correct, kind of blur the picture. Still picture is very sharp with RGB2HDMI, maybe to sharp.

Last but not least it all depends on what you are going to use your Amiga for.
If you are not into games or the demo scene go WinUAE all the way.

[gimbal]

Originally Posted by Anubis

I can't be only one who does not miss small CRT screens?!

I love ability to play Amiga games on bigger screen than old 14" or 15" monitors.

I like that I can play the games windowed, that's about as much charm as the bigger monitor brings. But the look of playing on a native screen in a native resolution is infinitely more awesome.

[nikosidis]

Originally Posted by gimbal

I like that I can play the games windowed, that's about as much charm as the bigger monitor brings. But the look of playing on a native screen in a native resolution is infinitely more awesome.

You are right. There is nothing like native resolution.
I have two 21" CRT Panasonic TVs. Amiga games and demos look absolutely stunning there. It is what I use when I have friends over to play games or watch demos.

[Daedalus]

Originally Posted by nikosidis

The first video I provided is switching resolutions.
Can you do that one?

It's still not a resolution switch in monitor terms - it's just fitting more pixels into the same signal. And it can also be done instantly in all cases as a result. In essence, all AGA screenmodes are output as a signal 1280 pixels wide, but when a low res screenmode is used, each pixel in memory uses 4 pixels of the output, and when a high res screenmode is used, each pixel in memory uses 2 output pixels. It's this scheme that allows high resolution sprites on a low resolution screen and quarter-pixel scrolling, for example.

I can still see that screen draging is not as smooth or fast as on the real thing.

Possibly a mismatch between the emulated refresh rate and the monitor's refresh rate. You should be aware of course that some LCDs and setups can and do run at 50Hz, and some CRTs refuse to work at 50Hz (and even those that do are typically very flickery), so it's not as cut and dried as it may seem. But it's definitely an aspect that's easier to set up with real hardware as the display should always sync to the Amiga. It's also worth noting that dragging an interlaced screen will always show a bit of interlacing that is otherwise invisible on the emulation, which probably makes it look more jarring when it moves as for one frame the two fields show the dragged screen in different vertical positions. Without the deinterlacing, you'll have that flicker applied universally to the whole screen, so it'll probably look smoother but will of course flicker terribly.

Don't get me wrong, I do love the experience of a CRT, which does things "naturally" that need a carefully configured setup to emulate. But there's also a lot of myth and legend around, and the practicality and cost aspect is a big deal, especially when the OP has said that they don't have any space for new hardware. Arguably I have space, yet I still have my CRT packed away because realistically that space is better used for other things.