Crappy C64 screen resolution

[Zak]

Sorry for click-baity title and not questioning that the C64 was overall one of the best machines ever, but alas, I always thought that the 160x200 screen resolution looks atrocious in comparison to other systems, and I always wondered why they didn't produce the games in 320x200, which the machine is capable of? They always claimed the C64 CPU would be the best, there was plenty of memory in comparison to other systems, so why didn't it happen? And do you agree that the screen resolution looks horrible? Or do you even think it's cool?

[AestheticDebris]

Because in 330*200 mode you only have very limited colour placement. Basically 2 colours per 8*8 block, one of which has to be shared across the screen.

I don't mind the 160*200 graphics, especially not on old CRT displays which tended to smooth then out a lot. It wasn't perfect, but all 8-bit systems had very limited graphics capabilities in one way or another and everything was some sort of compromise.

[Zak]

Originally Posted by AestheticDebris

Because in 330*200 mode you only have very limited colour placement. Basically 2 colours per 8*8 block, one of which has to be shared across the screen.

But wasn't this the same on the Sinclair ZX Spectrum and yet they always used the high resolution screen mode and the C64 never did?

[Megalomaniac]

The Spectrum only had that one screen mode though, 256x192 with only 2 colours (from a palette of 8, plus Bright versions of all except black) in an 8x8 area (and they have to either both be from the Bright section or neither from the Bright section, though at least they could go anywhere beyond that 8x8 limitation). I suspect that if the Spectrum had a 128x192 mode with free colour placement, most games would have used that. More Amstrad CPC games used 160x200x16 colours than 320x200 in 4 colours as well. As said, the 8-bits all had limitations, scrolling was a problem for the Amstrad, the C64 could only do so much if you weren't using sprites, and colour clash did limit the Spectrum especially (and a few other systems in different ways). For action games I tend to think more colours looks better than higher resolution, at least on the box.

[dreadnought]

I too think it's been a long time since the last platform war thread.

[TCD]

Originally Posted by dreadnought

I too think it's been a long time since the last platform war thread.

Yep, can't have us slacking off with the platform bashing. Get on with it then.

[chb]

I guess preferring the lower resolution was also a consequence of luma/chroma crosstalk on NTSC when using composite out. The C64 has separate luma and chroma outputs, but probably only a minority of users had monitors or TV sets that were capable to use those, at least during the first years. When using composite, high-frequency luma patterns get interpreted as chroma information, leading to color artifacts. The C64 tried to mitigate this somewhat by using a pixel frequency that was not a multiple of the NTSC color carrier frequency, but it is still there. PAL is less affected by this, no idea about SECAM.

[Zak]

Originally Posted by Megalomaniac

The Spectrum only had that one screen mode though, 256x192

No, that's not true, the Spectrum has a low res mode, I know that for sure, because I used to type listings from computer magazines into the machine, and I had some programs in Basic computer language that were using the low resolution mode. I can't make proof of it now, but I know that for sure. It's just so that games never used that mode.

[AestheticDebris]

Originally Posted by Zak

No, that's not true, the Spectrum has a low res mode, I know that for sure, because I used to type listings from computer magazines into the machine, and I had some programs in Basic computer language that were using the low resolution mode. I can't make proof of it now, but I know that for sure. It's just so that games never used that mode.

It really doesn't. You're probably misremembering something.

[AestheticDebris]

Originally Posted by TCD

Yep, can't have us slacking off with the platform bashing. Get on with it then.

Or we could all just be nice about them all. They are all great in different ways and all horribly limited than others. The difference's between them were much starker than those between the 16-bit machines and that's much of the charm of that era.

[Zak]

Originally Posted by AestheticDebris

It really doesn't. You're probably misremembering something.

No, I don't. I probably still got the programs on tape, but I have no means for getting that on my PC. I think my Spectrum even doesn't work anymore, so no chance. I know for sure that this mode exists.

[Zak]

Originally Posted by AestheticDebris

Or we could all just be nice about them all. They are all great in different ways and all horribly limited than others. The difference's between them were much starker than those between the 16-bit machines and that's much of the charm of that era.

I didn't exactly do platform bashing, it's just that I wonder why this screen mode on C64 was never used for games. Like never ever, not even for puzzle games or text adventures.

[AestheticDebris]

Originally Posted by Zak

No, I don't. I probably still got the programs on tape, but I have no means for getting that on my PC. I think my Spectrum even doesn't work anymore, so no chance. I know for sure that this mode exists.

I've been programming the Spectrum for over 40 years and have written emulators for it. It has a single, fixed video mode and that's it.

You might be thinking of the ZX81 which had a kind of quirky low res pixel mode that was actually created out of a subset of characters in it's text mode. The same characters also appeared in the Spectrum character set and could be used to produce similarly blocky graphics, but they're all just rendered directly into the same "high" resolution framebuffer.

[AestheticDebris]

Originally Posted by Zak

I didn't exactly do platform bashing, it's just that I wonder why this screen mode on C64 was never used for games. Like never ever, not even for puzzle games or text adventures.

Never is always a bold claim:

[ Show youtube player ]

It was certainly used occasionally, but games that did often took criticism for looking like Spectrum ports. There are also a few games that used the mixed high res/low Res modes although not as many because that compromised the amount of variety you could have in background tiles quite substantially.

[Zak]

I don't know what "Spectrum Next" means, but maybe look at this:

[ Show youtube player ]

[AestheticDebris]

The Spectrum Next is a new machine, designed to be a sort of modern idea of what might have followed on if the Spectrum had continued development. But it has crazy powerful graphics capabilities compared to the original, probably even more powerful than the Amiga in many ways.

[Megalomaniac]

The Next is a contemporary system updated from the original Spectrum, perfectly compatible with the original but also heavily updated, its not a relevant comparison point here.

What would C64 fans suggest as particularly good uses of the system's hi-res mode? I suspect most games that used it were Spectrum ports (technically the Dizzy games originated on the Amstrad, but they're drawn within Spectrum style colour capabilities - though it didn't really damage their kid appeal that much) because the colour capabilities were such a huge trade-off (actually worse than what the Spectrum could do in its 256x192, though in an even higher (and more commonly used on other systems) 320x200 resolution).

This thread might be salvageable, but I'd change the title to "why did most C64 games use its lower-resolution mode?" or similar to stop it descending into "my computer was better than your computer" type bickering.

[chb]

Originally Posted by AestheticDebris

There are also a few games that used the mixed high res/low Res modes although not as many because that compromised the amount of variety you could have in background tiles quite substantially.

Yes, mixed mode was used quite a bit, you can spot it often in the background layer of games that feature parallax scrolling, like some stages in the Turrican series. As parallax scrolling on the C64 usually works by changing a single or a handful of characters, the additional horizontal resolution allows for smoother slow scrolling backgrounds.

EDIT: Apart from that, high res was used e.g. in Elite for the vector part of the screen.

[saimo]

Originally Posted by Zak

Sorry for click-baity title and not questioning that the C64 was overall one of the best machines ever, but alas, I always thought that the 160x200 screen resolution looks atrocious in comparison to other systems, and I always wondered why they didn't produce the games in 320x200, which the machine is capable of? They always claimed the C64 CPU would be the best, there was plenty of memory in comparison to other systems, so why didn't it happen?

Except that it did happen: the C64 games library is vast and includes plenty of hires games (although they are the minority)

And do you agree that the screen resolution looks horrible? Or do you even think it's cool?

It's good or bad depending on the artist's skills.

That said, here's my contribution to satisfy your craving for hires:

[ Show youtube player ]

(Feel free to try it out yourself: https://retream.itch.io/quod-init-exit-iio)

[tomcat666]

Originally Posted by Megalomaniac

What would C64 fans suggest as particularly good uses of the system's hi-res mode?

When we set to make a port of Atic Atac over to C64 we wanted to preserve the hi-res resolution. Steve did a great job of doing c64 specific hires graphics and all monsters and of course the player sprite use overlays so you get a lot of colours and no attribute clash in hires mode on c64, kinda proud of it really, it is rare thing on c64 :

[ Show youtube player ]