Metro Siege: new arcade quality a500 brawler!

[Tigerskunk]

@Nishicorn:

Your post is basically just technical stuff everyone knows here already anyway. There are literally hundreds of pages about these discussions in this forum alone.

And on "why even create this":
Well, with your argument we could all just stop creating new games for the Amiga. Or even stop the whole retro gaming scene from creating something.

There is literally no genre where there are not like a dozen high quality entries existing. Does that mean we should not have fun creating some in the vein of what is already existing?

Especially for the Amiga, where a brawler game of the quality that Metro Siege seems to have does not exist.

If you are so against new games that imitate classic ones for the Amiga, you should simply avoid these threads, probably.

It doesn't seem to be your cup of tea, and that's completely fine.
But don't shit on the efforts of people who are having fun with this.

[roondar]

Most of this has been discussed quite often. So, I won't go into technical details or argue about such points. However, there is one tiny tidbit I do want to reply to as I've heard it several times before and find it really interesting that this point is sometimes made.

Originally Posted by Nishicorn

...However, there's no hope for Amiga 500 to ever surpass what Super Famicom can do, except maybe resolution-wise...

I wrote a much longer reply about this, but it's off-topic so here's a shorter version:
The pixel size of Amiga graphics (i.e. it's "native resolution") is always smaller than the equivalent SNES mode. Which means the Amiga always uses a higher resolution than the SNES. However, on the Amiga games don't have to use the full screen, so some games do indeed use fewer on screen pixels than SNES games do. However, the most commonly used SNES resolution is so low (256x224 pixels) that the majority of Amiga games actually still display more pixels.


------
But other than this minor point, I fully agree with Steril. In fact, I'd rather say why not make this?

Retro game development is not about making the next big thing or making things that outdo the very best of what is already available. Rather, it is about making nice stuff for systems that have long since passed into obscurity. It's a hobby and maybe even an art-form. It does not need to serve any purpose other than making the developers/artists/musicians happy and offering something fun to play for the retro community.

I honestly and in full seriousness never got this "why make it" attitude. IMHO, we should be happy that people want to invest in these old platforms and expand our common hobby. And if you're not into new retro games - well, fair enough. But in that case, simply ignore it. Basically, I see no need to potentially demotivate others just because you're personally not interested.

Especially not here, as this game looks to be quite good. IMHO what I've seen so far would not look at all out of place on say the Mega Drive or PC-Engine.

[Tigerskunk]

This game looks utterly amazing, imo.
And would not look out of place on a SNES.

Great job done by everyone involved..

[nobody]

Originally Posted by Nishicorn

Sega Megadrive can give you around 64 colors out of a 512-color palette, if memory serves, so obviously Amiga can match and surpass that with relative ease. Choosing even just 32 colors out of 4096-color palette is going to look better than 64 colors out of 512-color palette, depending on circumstances and graphician.

Wrong, 64 out of 512 would look better than 32 out of 4096. Too big a difference, could use another 8 ramps of 4 colors of different hues that don't exist on 32 colors.

[Havie]

You also contradict yourself:

Originally Posted by Nishicorn

"As long as the playability is good, why not? The world can always use another Final Fight-style game (there's not that many of them, at least good ones - Arcade version of 'The Punisher' is probably the best)."

Not to mention, Final Fight already exists for the Amiga - so, the philosophical question might be asked; besides the technical feat and the female (I assume) fighter, what does this game offer that the other 17 (!) games don't, that would draw in players?

(I didn't even mention the Double Dragon games)

I think most of us would say that any new games are a good thing as it keeps the Amiga alive and kicking. We seem to be in a new 'Golden Age' where there are some amazing technical and graphical games coming (not just for the Amiga but for all systems)! I for one am very much looking forward to Metro Seige.

[manossg]

I consider it a blessing that amazing, new software and hardware is coming out for the miggy.

[d4rk3lf]

Originally Posted by Nishicorn

Not to mention, Final Fight already exists for the Amiga - so, the philosophical question might be asked; besides the technical feat and the female (I assume) fighter, what does this game offer that the other 17 (!) games don't, that would draw in players?

It has to offer everything.

Beat em ups like this, are almost no existing on the Amiga (even Aga). Golden Axe was good port, but (imho) just an average beat em up, and that's about it.
Final Fight, you mentioned, is very bad port in terms of play-ability, nowhere close to the arcade.
There s few honorable mentions like: Motorhead, or Franko... but they are just that... "honorable mentions", not some ultra quality beat em up.

So, asking why we need a game in the most avoided genre on the Amiga, is funny.

[Marchie]

Originally Posted by Nishicorn

I have to wonder, are many other people really going to choose to play this on an OCS/ECS Amiga instead of playing the optimal versions of games like:

- Final Fight (and II, III, etc.)
- The Punisher
- Dinosaurs & Cadillacs
- Golden Axe...

Why do we continue to make kids movies when we could just re-watch E.T.?

Because it's old and we've all seen it before, and since we're not dead just yet, we like to make new things and see new things and try new things.

I will say though, this was quite an extensive post Nishicorn, you clearly spent a lot of effort on it, thanks for taking that much time out to contribute to the discussion!

Oh, and has anyone in this thread said "why bother, just get a Rasberry Pi" yet?

There I think I just did, feels good to get that out of the way.

Now we just need someone to say Vampires are not real Amigas and the thread will be complete...

(Pardon the sarcasm folks, I can't help it sometimes.)

[dlfrsilver]

Originally Posted by Nishicorn

"Could have". There's no such thing as 'could of'.

OCS/ECS Amiga could never have gone 'head-to-head' (what 'head' are we talking about, exactly?) against a Super Famicom, but Amiga versions of Sega Genesis games are usually much better.

Sega Megadrive can give you around 64 colors out of a 512-color palette, if memory serves, so obviously Amiga can match and surpass that with relative ease. Choosing even just 32 colors out of 4096-color palette is going to look better than 64 colors out of 512-color palette, depending on circumstances and graphician.

(This was a tough one to realize back in the day, when VGA games looked better than Amiga 500 games, 'although' Amiga supposedly has more colors (4096 vs. 256). Pure math and numbers don't always tell the whole truth, though, as VGA had 262144-color (18-bit) palette to choose those 256 colors from..)

Now, I don't mind people pushing the limits or the envelope (whatever that means) of a machine - it sometimes almost seems that's what Commodore 64 and Amiga were made for. People are free to do whatever they want, and I encourage this kind of projects, and it can be a lot of fun and gives nice usage and more life to an otherwise possibly a bit abandoned platform.

So anyone wanting to push Amiga 500 beyond its 'expected limitations', as the democoders have done since the eighties, go for it!

However, there's no hope for Amiga 500 to ever surpass what Super Famicom can do, except maybe resolution-wise, and in very specific circumstances (some Amiga versions of games are better in almost every way than Super Famicom versions, but there are many variables contributing to these things).

Soundwise, Super Famicom's only weakness is the small memory - so samples on the Amiga side can probably be bigger, which can create a 'larger sound'. However, Amiga 500 usually has 1 MB memory limitation, and graphics and the code also take a large chunk of that, so a limitation exists there, too.

Also, Super Famicom's sound chip has a 16-bit DSP, completely independent of the rest of the system, and sports 8 channels and built-in effects (such as the perhaps overused delay/echo).

Graphicswise, Super Famicom has Mode 7. Need I say more? It also has a 32768-color palette (versus Amiga's 4096), that you can choose 256 colors for the screen (16, 32 or 64 on the Amiga, and for a game, 32 is probably practical maximum).

The incredibly gorgeous 'Copper+combination while moving a huge object'-effects in Chrono Trigger prove that even in the 2D-world, Amiga can't quite keep up (I have never seen a colorful copperslide-effect that is contained inside an enormous, also otherwise colorful frog while it jumps around the screen and moves independently in relation to the 'Copper-effect' AND the background on the Amiga - I don't even know how that could be created with something like a modern Basic programming language without making the 'copperslide' a memory-wasting animation to sync with the movements).

Amiga is a wonderful computer, but colorwise, Mode 7-wise, and whatever we might call what this copper+frog-example prove about the Super Famicom's graphical capabilities, and debatably also soundwise, the ECS/OCS Amiga can't quite go 'head-to-head' against Super Famicom, or at least I can't think of an example of how it could, if both systems are used optimally and maxxing out their capabilities as much as possible.

But that's why AGA Amigas exist - if you have to go against something that has 256 simultaneous onscreen colors (without counting copper-produced gimmicks), that also looks like it does, you gotta go AGA.

You can prove what the Amiga 500 can do in the right hands (although democoders have sort of attempted to do that already), and you can beat Sega Genesis hands down in many scenarios (though not sure if Sonic the Hedgehog would be possible), but lumping Sega Genesis (especially due to its weak sound that doesn't hold candle even against Yamaha's old OPL2/Adlib) together with Super Famicom and expecting OCS/ECS-Amiga to even be able to complete..

..is not facing the facts (living in delusion of some kind maybe?).

There's only so far you can trim a moped, a fighter jet will always be faster.

As far as the game itself - I read some of the comments before looking at the graphics, and I was impressed - the game looks much better than I thought. I would gladly play a game that looks like this, no problems whatsoever. The graphics are well drawn and look good.

As long as the playability is good, why not? The world can always use another Final Fight-style game (there's not that many of them, at least good ones - Arcade version of 'The Punisher' is probably the best).

To give constructive criticism and my viewpoints;

The fighter character has a bit too much 'armor', and could use a bit more well-defined roundness and character, as the look is very 'blocky' and strange - I am also not sure about that 'motion blur kick', it looks a bit odd. Not a dealbreaker, though.

The 'enemies' look incredibly generic and stock. They're well drawn, but they don't seem to have much 'personality', and compared to Final Fight's weirdos, you kinda miss variety in the enemies (no women to fight? Where's equality?). It's not fun to just pummel the same, generic 'dudes' over and over again.

Look at other similar games, like 'Golden Axe', even their 'generic' enemies have personality and unique style.

Otherwise, everything looks promising, and it seems like an incredible feat to add this many huge moving characters to an OCS/ECS game! So, nicely done!

The more philosophical point, for whatever it's worth, is that for Sega Genesis, Super Famicom, Arcade, etc. there are already a large amount of games like this, that have really well polished gameplay, so although I love this genre, I have to wonder, are many other people really going to choose to play this on an OCS/ECS Amiga instead of playing the optimal versions of games like:

- Final Fight (and II, III, etc.)
- The Punisher
- Dinosaurs & Cadillacs
- Golden Axe
- Ghost Chaser
- Streets of Rage (and II, III..)
- Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers
- Ninja Warriors
- Dynasty Wars
- Pretty Soldier Sailor Moon
- The King of Dragons
- Knights of the Round
- Magic Sword

Not to mention, Final Fight already exists for the Amiga - so, the philosophical question might be asked; besides the technical feat and the female (I assume) fighter, what does this game offer that the other 17 (!) games don't, that would draw in players?

(I didn't even mention the Double Dragon games)

Very honestly a snes never display more than 128 colors. 256 colors is out of question, only usable on fixed screens.

[Tigerskunk]

I checked a lot of SNES screenshots for counting colours (without palette copper changes), and usually we are within 64 to 90 colours for a typical SNES game.

[roondar]

Probably has to do with the fact that on the MD/PC-Engine/SNES the colour palette is not unified but split up into "sub palettes", each containing 16 colours (well, 15 really as one is transparent). This means you might need duplicate colours. The Amiga's palette isn't big enough to compensate for this, but if run in 32 colour mode you do get some benefit of having a unified palette rather than a bunch of separate ones.

Might also be because the SNES supports several screen modes and many of them don't support 256 colours.

Anyway, with games like Metro Siege (or indeed your own game, Inviyya) we can see that having a smaller palette does not need to mean games that look like they're using only a few colours. More colours is obviously nicer, but you can still get great results even when using only around 16 of them.

[Tigerskunk]

Originally Posted by roondar

More colours is obviously nicer, but you can still get great results even when using only around 16 of them.

It's a lot easier to get a good result out of 16 colours than out of 32 for me in a way that the colours scale with the quality of the art.

16 is really a sweet spot for me there.

Those 7 colours in dual playfield are just not enough, but on the other side it's hard to properly utilize 32 colours in a way that you can immediately grasp that the image looks much better for it.

The jump from 8 colours to 16 is tremendous. From 16 to 32 not so much anymore. Or maybe I just suck at it..

[mcgeezer]

Originally Posted by Steril707

The jump from 8 colours to 16 is tremendous. From 16 to 32 not so much anymore. Or maybe I just suck at it..

You need to use PPaint mate, it works wonders with the palettes - Yesterday I dropped a 40 colour image into a predefined 16 colour palette and I couldn't tell the difference in the result.

As for SNES and A500 - the uninitiated forget and lump the SNES, A500 and MD in the same boat when they're in different generations - the fact that the A500 can compete with the others is testament to just how f*cking good the machine was for it's time. You wouldn't expect a PS3 to compete with a PS4 so why do the same for retro machines created across a decade just because they have the same number of bits in CPU architecture.

So massive kudos from me to anyone developing for the A500 (regardless if I like the game genre or not).

[roondar]

Originally Posted by mcgeezer

As for SNES and A500 - the uninitiated forget and lump the SNES, A500 and MD in the same boat when they're in different generations - the fact that the A500 can compete with the others is testament to just how f*cking good the machine was for it's time. You wouldn't expect a PS3 to compete with a PS4 so why do the same for retro machines created across a decade just because they have the same number of bits in CPU architecture.

Yup, this has been my point for several years as well

[E-Penguin]

Originally Posted by Steril707

But don't shit on the efforts of people who are having fun with this.

1000 times this.

[Bren McGuire]

Wait, everyone, look, listen to what the expert has to say
Please show us all the 100% original Amiga games you have created?
I've seen your other posts, all you do is criticize and give shit, but what do you do for the community? Absolutely nothing.

Originally Posted by Nishicorn

Not to mention, Final Fight already exists for the Amiga - so, the philosophical question might be asked; besides the technical feat and the female (I assume) fighter, what does this game offer that the other 17 (!) games don't, that would draw in players?

[Tsak]

Originally Posted by Steril707

It's a lot easier to get a good result out of 16 colours than out of 32 for me in a way that the colours scale with the quality of the art.

16 is really a sweet spot for me there.

Those 7 colours in dual playfield are just not enough, but on the other side it's hard to properly utilize 32 colours in a way that you can immediately grasp that the image looks much better for it.

The jump from 8 colours to 16 is tremendous. From 16 to 32 not so much anymore. Or maybe I just suck at it..

For me personally the sweet spot is 32 colors. Which are pretty nice for the mature 90s pixel art style that I love. With just (and strictly) 16 you need to do tough sacrifices to either hues and/or color ramps. But a well constructed and thought of 16 color palette can do wonders indeed

Having said that, Amiga OCS games rarely display only 16 colors. Using sprites and copper tricks you can signifficantly raise the colour count on screen (and not only for cheap rainbow-skies effects but also in regards to the gfx used - as showcased with Metro Siege for example). This is also one of the main reasons Amiga game graphics manage to hold up pretty well against Mega Drive and SNES. Which is something you definitely cannot 100% claim for Atari ST games f.e. (even if the difference is not chaotic).

When I first saw Mike's original mockup (which led to us kickstarting the project) I just couldn't believe this was possible with the main game running at '16 colors' only. Testament to the things you can achieve.

In regards to dual playfield I guess that the same could be claimed. I think there's a lot yet to be discovered. Very skilful artists and again with the above mentioned tricks (and serious palette management), can possibly mask and overcome these restrictions. There are also many modern game art styles, from monochromatic, to '8-bit retro', to generally minimalistic or obscure that could easilly cope with split 8 color palettes and still produce a gorgeous result. Loads of untapped potencial here.

[Lord Aga]

Originally Posted by Nishicorn

Not to mention, Final Fight already exists for the Amiga

No it doesn't!

Nnnno!

[Marchie]

Originally Posted by Tsak

For me personally the sweet spot is 32 colors. Which are pretty nice for the mature 90s pixel art style that I love. With just (and strictly) 16 you need to do tough sacrifices to either hues and/or color ramps. But a well constructed and thought of 16 color palette can do wonders indeed

I agree, 32 colours (and even 16) is more than enough. Almost the first thing you should do to create a good image is limit your palette to just a couple of complimentary hues, it will improve the image and not hamper it.

I think we need to get over the 90's habit of counting colours, it's counter-productive. Total palette size makes a big difference of course, but the Amiga does really well on that front - 4096 colours is more than sufficient (not luxurious, but sufficient).

Out of interest, can the AGA machines do 16/32 colours, but picking from the larger AGA palette? (262,000 right?) and does picking from a larger palette use any more memory?

[saimon69]

Well, the AGA palette is 24 bit, the 262,144 number of colors is given from the physical number of pixels in the screen in PAL Hi-res.
[that is at least the way it was explained in some italian magazines in the 90s]
Plus, in AGA the dual playfield is made of two sets of four bitplanes, hence you have 32 colors on screen by base without copper effects.