All modern LCD TVs display Amiga PAL RGB perfectly - true or false?

[Photon]

Just curious to see if my "data is old".

Previously, there has been all kinds of trouble displaying native Amiga modes correctly. The picture has been stretched, or Scart without RGB support (fuzzy picture) or no stutter-free 50Hz support (ie. scrolling with frameskip or deinterlace-stripes). Is this a correct description?

The claim is that new chips were made in 2010 for full-HD TVs (only) that can stretch 640x256 and 1280x512 (16:8) to 16:9, and (via remote) display 320x256 etc letterboxed with correct aspect ratio (5:4).

I.e. they look like this 1280x512 example: (Hires photo here courtesy of ZeroX.)


NOTE that I'm not asking for this particular mode - BUT of course if the claim is true, then all of the modern TVs should look as good as this in 1280x512.

So that you could today walk into any home electronics store with an Amiga and easily find a modern LCD TV that will display Amiga PAL RGB via Scart correctly, ie. Workbench will look sharp and games will perform without stutter and look nice.

This is the definition. Is this true, in your opinion?

(I ask because it was such a problem before and I would like to possess updated knowledge )

EDIT:
If your TV works as described above, congratulations! But did you just bring your Amiga to the store and it was easy to find a TV that worked? Vote accordingly!

So it's about the hit-and-miss ratio of LCD TV vs. Amiga. Did it improve in 2010 - did the TVs become better for Amiga?

[fitzsteve]

Amiga will work perfectly fine over RGB-Scart or even composite on most modern LCD TV's, this includes de-interlacing so you can enjoy a nice 640x512(i) Workbench.

None of these will offer you 100% smooth scrolling so bare that in mind, the purist will always prefer an old skool CRT, for the other 95% you will be happy with LCD

[Photon]

Wow, that was fast.

Well, what I mean by "stutter" is refresh rate is not 50Hz, but 60. I.e. frameskip (even though LCD black-to-white time might cover it a little).

Basically, I'm after whether games will "run just fine" even if they scroll.

In other words, if something scrolls smoothly but has some shadowing from the LCD - well, that's unavoidable and fine, otherwise it's counted as "the usual stuttering".

[demolition]

I think most support RGB input and can display with correct aspect ratio. Whether it will work with 1280x512, I'm not sure, but it generally works fine with 640x256 mode.

The only issue I've noticed is with my own Panasonic plasma TV. It cuts off a part of the left side of the image. This is quite annoying as it cuts away ~3 characters when opening a CLI. Also very hard to use my Action Replay when you can't see the first couple of characters. And it cannot be adjusted away. And yes, the cable is fine and works on other screens just fine. Picture is sharp, colors are good and movements are also decent (not perfect for gaming though). Movement seems smooth, although I know that the panel is always running at 60 Hz but the resampling is quite good so not very noticeable.

Some new TVs might not even have SCART input. HDMI is taking over, so some good SCART to HDMI converter might soon be necessary. My own TV has one using a breakout adapter plug since the TV is probably too thin to have a real SCART socket built in.

[Photon]

Yep, a part of the definition is that the scrolling isn't choppy.

Choppy scrolling basically means it's the same TV we've always gotten in stores and not the one we want.

Smooth scrolling without chopping is fine. Frame skip, resampled or not, is NIKZ AKZEPTABL.

Broadly speaking, it should be a TV good enough for productivity in Workbench but not ONLY for Workbench.

It's not important that it displays 1280x512 perfectly. After all, that mode is not very usable on a 12" CRT either. Normal 640x256 is fine, but that has has to look sharp. But again, if the claim is true, then your 2011+ full-HD TV should look as good as the example picture.

[Jope]

My 2006 LG does it in 50Hz, my 2009(?) Sony in 25Hz.

No option in the Sony's menus will help - it will always insist to deinterlace a progressive signal via scart :-(

[Photon]

Yes, but did "any" TV work fine like this then? I.e. just walk into a store and plug an Amiga into some TVs, and most of them would give a sharp, stutter-free picture?

If so, then poll alternative 2 is true and I've been deluded all this time.

It's all just about this. Before, it was a problem finding a decent LCD TV for Amiga. Since 2010-11, it's no problem. True or false.

And BTW, what are you all doing up so late at night? hehe

[Photon]

Originally Posted by fitzsteve

None of these will offer you 100% smooth scrolling

For the claim to be true, what I'm looking for is a chip like the one in the Joytech; no frameskip but proper 50Hz refresh rate, and no deinterlace striping in horizontal movement. Normal LCD shadowing is perfectly acceptable; it's an artifact of the LCD technology and I don't expect the chip to fix that.

Do these screens have (perhaps) shadowed - but smooth - scrolling like that? Else they don't meet the claim and modern TVs are like 2006 TVs except they can now display an unstretched PAL picture.

[Retro-Nerd]

Real 50Hz capable Plasma or LCD TVs scrolls perfectly smooth (no stutter). But yes, you will see a smearing, ghosting or whatever you would call it via RGB connection. That's what i've noticed on my 2010 Panasonic Plasma and saw on some others.

[Photon]

It's perfectly obvious that scrolling is smooth if it's one of those 50Hz capable TVs.

But the question was whether they are so common in stores everywhere nowadays to where you can just go to the nearest home electronics store and that would be such a smooth scrolling Amiga compatible TV without stretching and that has a sharp picture for Workbench.

[Toni Wilen]

False.

Some models don't understand progressive "312p" mode and show only every other field = 25Hz. It is not a fault because progressive PAL or NTSC is a hack, it is not in PAL/NTSC specs and of course it isn't listed in any TV specs.. (I have LG that supports progressive and Sony that does not. Never seen any problems with aspect ratios)

Superhires is also out of spec mode, "too many" horizontal pixels, TVs A/D converter/image logic timing is most likely designed for proper PAL/NTSC only.

Interlace mode is also shown "incorrectly", odd and even fields are combined (deinterlaced) which causes interlace artifacts that do not appear when shown using standard analog (=without any image processing logic) CRT display.

This is exact same artifact you can see when using flickerfixer or emulator using PC displays.

Only guaranteed way to get 50Hz progressive support: HDMI connection + TV that is advertised as "HD compatible" or similar. Not much help with real Amigas.. (unless there is properly built converter that knows about progressive PAL/NTSC)

[diablothe2nd]

our sony tv does a great job of removing flicker from an interlaced screen, the mouse goes a bit choppy though. games are silky smooth too.

on the other hand, my acoustic solutions tv is much like an old crt tv when it comes to interlace mode, lots of the traditional flicker.

both TV's are post 2006 models.

haven't tried it yet on my LG P2250G plasma yet though. which was bought this year. i should probably give it a try as it's 600hz (not 3d) and does some pretty darn fancy stuff with low res inputs, including built in upscaling and image correction.

i'm half tempted to have my CD1200 in the lounge on the 50 inch plasma as it would suit my lounge cabinet when finished

[cpiac64]

my LED hdtv work fine, but i need verify frequency and resolution

[mr.vince]

I still use CRT at work to see interlaced content. That's what interlacing was made for in the first place. I've seen many LCDs, Plasmas and projectors. None of them can display interlaced content, it needs to be upscaled. Hence the scrolling is never as smooth as with CRTs. Also underscan often is a problem (cut off CLI windows), as well as aspect ratio.

It depends on how picky you are. I have some LCDs that are ok, and I use a 3k Euro scaler/doubler. It's ok. But it's not great. It can't do magic. All these displays weren't made for interlaced content. Don't let marketing fool you.

But the best picture still is on my old Sony CRT TV, probably worth EUR 20.-...

If you can, grab a CRT. Or accept the drawbacks.

[Retrofan]

What monitor driver can I try for 1280x512?

[Photon]

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

False.

Some models don't understand progressive "312p" mode and show only every other field = 25Hz.

What the definition of a PAL signal is and was doesn't really matter. 25Hz is not good enough. The Amiga outputs 50 frames/sec and CRT TVs display all of them, not half of them. That's what matters. Real quality, not mere movie quality

Hmm, a scroll that runs half framerate on a CRT TV automatically gives the visual impression of a shadow. If you see heavy LCD shadowing beyond the norm, it could be that you have the autodeinterlacing+25Hz chip.

Edit: I think that might be what fitzsteve meant by mentioning (i) in his post. You will get a good still picture and it won't go 60Hz+stutter but it will deinterlace yummy 50Hz moving graphics to 25Hz (i) with artifacts of varying degree apart from the normal LCD pixelshadowing. So, it remains to be seen whether some skip deinterlacing in 312p. Which is basically what you said Toni

[hooverphonique]

Originally Posted by demolition

The only issue I've noticed is with my own Panasonic plasma TV. It cuts off a part of the left side of the image. This is quite annoying as it cuts away ~3 characters when opening a CLI.

do you (by mistake) have overscan/zoom enabled on the tv?

[demolition]

Originally Posted by hooverphonique

do you (by mistake) have overscan/zoom enabled on the tv?

Quite sure as I've gone through all the options.
I can change the aspect ratio, but it is always cut on the left side. I normally have it set to 4:3 so it adds black borders on the left and right.

Maybe it's a Panasonic thing as my old Panasonic plasma did the exact same thing.

[hooverphonique]

strange.. I have a pana plasma too, but I'm not sure, if the rgb cable from my old cm8833 is to be found anywhere, so I could try it out..

[Photon]

Originally Posted by demolition

Quite sure as I've gone through all the options.
I can change the aspect ratio, but it is always cut on the left side. I normally have it set to 4:3 so it adds black borders on the left and right.

Maybe it's a Panasonic thing as my old Panasonic plasma did the exact same thing.

You could try the solution in my RGB cable, that gives me two horizontal positions in two modes. (With the penalty that you may not get your TV to react to the RGB input at all, and if your remote can't toggle to RGB mode you will simply get a blank picture.)

Don't forget to vote! Poll is about whether it's easy to find a 50Hz LCD TV for Amiga since last 3 years, as opposed to before that when it was sheer hell and you never knew if it supported RGB on the Scart.

I want to know if I'm wrong in saying LCD TVs still aren't good enough for moving gfx (action games, basically). They seem to have (some of them or all?) fixed the stretching and frameskip issues, with the penalty that they skip exactly half of the frames(?)