Scanline generators, anyone?

[Cobe]

Some time ago, just out of pure curiosity, before I even knew they really do exist, I've wrote scanline generator in aliexpress search and there they were.

Now I'm seriously thinking of getting one but in ali's descriptions its impossible to tell what horizontal frequency it accepts and what frequency it outputs, same goes for the vertical, they only mention 60hz.

I saw SLG3000(assambled in Germany?) but it seems to accept only 31khz...

Anyone has some experience with these devices?

[SquawkBox]

Check this post of mine in "What did you buy today" thread, it bears a link to a device I bought of eBay a while ago and can wholeheartedly recommend. Cheaper than the SLG 3000, tiny, and works with everything I throw at it (PS2, Gamecube...).

[Cobe]

That looks great! Did you test it with Amiga?

[SquawkBox]

Admittedly, Made in France products always implies greatness (just joking). Well, it works just as intended without any external power supply. Tested briefly with the miggy. My A500 bears a S-VHS (S-Video) modulator and socket, so I can easily use it with my VGA box. The scanline generator is located between the output VGA cable end of the VGA box and the one geared at the CRT monitor.
About the generator itself, one can choose between big and small scanlines (I use small ones), and there are a couple of switches / knobs one can have access to with a small coin or flat screwdriver.

[Cobe]

You use it with crt? Why would you need more scanlines than crt already has?
I intend to put it between lcd tv and cd32 that has edu aranas raiser with vga.
Tv can display doublescan and similar resolutions over vga. But of course it cant display pal. I mean it can over rca but not over vga.
Also, does device sync well with pal? You dont have some hickups during scrolling?

[SquawkBox]

It's plugged into a CRT monitor (Diamondtron), not a TV. I assume VGA boxes do some line doubling in order for the CRT to grasp a 31 KHz type of signal. That's the reason why a scanline generator is recommended in that scenario, to attenuate the fullness of the picture. I don't think it interferes in any way with the scrolling, AFAIK it just draws thin or big scanlines on top of the picture, plain and simple. I mainly used this machine to watch old school megademos but, as of yet, didn't notice anything wrong or unusual.

[Retro-Nerd]

AFAIK it just draws thin or big scanlines on top of the picture, plain and simple

Yeah, but that's actually nothing what real scanlines/CRT masks looks like. Even PC emulator shaders are better than that.

[Jope]

A scanline generator will need a scandoubled input so that it can work properly, so these are for 31kHz signals. They shouldn't be that fussy about vertical refresh.

[Cobe]

Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd

Yeah, but that's actually nothing what real scanlines/CRT masks looks like. Even PC emulator shaders are better than that.

I love crt more than anything and I know nothiing will ever beat it. But I have to sattle with something.
At the same time when I searched for scanline generators, I also searched to see if someone already made crt shader in hardware but I think I'll have to wait few more years for that.

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

I don't think it interferes in any way with the scrolling

I asked that cause scrolling is the first thing you'd notice if device works in 60hz while Amiga is at 50hz.

Originally Posted by Jope

A scanline generator will need a scandoubled input so that it can work properly, so these are for 31kHz signals. They shouldn't be that fussy about vertical refresh.

I also fear that. Thats why I asked here.

@SquawkBox
If its not to much to ask and your gear is not far away from some lcd tv, could you please try it with it?

[SquawkBox]

Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd

Yeah, but that's actually nothing what real scanlines/CRT masks looks like.

It's in the 20 quids range, what do you expect ? This said, device's thin scanlines look decent to these eyes, not big enough to be distracting, not dark enough to be considered ugly.

Originally Posted by Cobe

If its not to much to ask and your gear is not far away from some lcd tv, could you please try it with it?

Ok, I'll try. Do you have a couple of game titles in mind (bearing hardware scrolling, I assume) ? I like testing things with Menace, it's corny yet enthralling at the same time.

[Cobe]

Menace is fine. As I know it runs at 50fps. Or if you're into shmups Uridium 2 perhaps.

Though, probably its that your s-video=>vga box that works as scan doubler and makes everything possible.. So in my scenario this if not all scanline generators wont work....

[Retro-Nerd]

Test Turrican or Lionheart, both scrolls in 50fps.

[SquawkBox]

Originally Posted by Cobe

if you're into shmups Uridium 2 perhaps.

You mean horizontal Goldrunner .

Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd

Test Turrican or Lionheart, both scrolls in 50fps.

Ah, too late I just unplugged the miggy from the VGA box. Well, if the above pictures aren't conclusive for our friend, I'll try the device with some more games. Ok so from top to bottom, U2 with big scanlines, U2 with thin scanlines, Menace with thin scanlines, Menace with big scanlines (or is it the other way round ?). I took these with my OnePlus phone, they don't do justice in terms of how the graphics are rendered, sorry about that. The signal is converted from VGA to HDMI thanks to a small device I bought from amazon. For me, it's best to play these games from the CRT or from a small LCD TV. The miggy is usually plugged into a 15'' LCD TV through S-Video, no scanlines with this setup but I don't miss them.
You asked specifically about results with LCD TV, but I think it's easier to visualize things with pictures of U2 taken from the CRT, please check them too :

[Cobe]

Ok. Thank you very much for testing.
Did you pay attention, was scrolling smooth? It didn't have hickup every second?

But I think that we can conclude that without some additional thingy that would act as scan doubler its no use to me.

[SquawkBox]

I think there is some confusion here. Retroelectronik's scanline generator doesn't depend upon a line doubler or a flicker fixer per se. As the name implies, it generates scanlines when inserted in between VGA chained equipment. Since your CD32 is fitted with VGA output thanks to Edu Ananas I mean Edu Arana device (sorry, couldn't help it, ananas meaning pineapple in French) and possibly some other expansion you didn't mention (to get RGB output, namely), it is actually a good candidate for that device. Now the question is does the scanlines themselves seem pretty / consistent to you, and does the price seems right ? To make things clear, it doesn't care if it conveys the signal of a console, a raspberry, a cyborg kangaroo, it just adds scanlines to the picture for any VGA enabled device . No hiccup during gameplay, no input lag, no nothing, just those "artificial" scanlines you're seeing , thin or big. Trust your own eyes if you don't trust me!

[Cobe]

Ok it does what it supose to do but you had vga to hdmi adapter. If I were to conect it directly to vga input of my tv I doubt I'll get any signal cause my tv as most of modern tvs cant display 15khz.

[SquawkBox]

Not at all, my oldish 26'' Sony Bravia has all sorts of inputs, component, scart... That includes VGA. I need to use the VGA -> HDMI adapter to reach it through a HDMI cable, since it's a few meters far off the VGA box, and considering there are no 10-15 meters long VGA cables. I could use a similar setup without any adapter on my 20'' LCD monitor (probably won't look too good, but that's not the point). If your CD32 has VGA input, that implies the signal belongs to the 31 KHz genre, agreed. But where do you get the idea that scanline generators needs 15k input signal ? It's not the case. See, each series of test was conducted with 31 KHz in mind, cross my heart.The odd converter is required if your LCD TV lacks VGA input, otherwise it will work just fine. You shall need a pair of bog standard VGA cables and a small flat screwdriver along with the generator though, nothing more (and nothing less).

[Cobe]

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

If your CD32 has VGA input, that implies the signal belongs to the 31 KHz genre, agreed.

No. Pal over cd32s vga output is still 15khz. My tv has vga input. I cant get it to display amiga pal. I can only get it to display wb if I use dblpal and similar screen modes.

[SquawkBox]

So, that ananas riser of yours barely conveys the CD32 signal as is, without any attempt to modulate it for a fully compliant VGA output signal ? Sorry if I sound obtuse, but doesn't it amount to being a poor man's Terrible Fire 328/330 substitute ?

[Cobe]

Be it Aranas or Kipper2ks raiser its purpose is to plug tf328/30 in it. And they are all about the same price and do about the same. You cant plug tf328/30 directly into cd32.