AGA or RTG

[grelbfarlk]

Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

Never mind that it would be the first all-original chipset authentic Amiga since the lights went out. It would be THE ONLY ONE with RTG on-board. )

There's also the GBA-1000, Hese's A4000ATX, Edu Arana's A2000ATX, the AA3000+, that other MicroATX A500-alike (again from Hese I think), probably forgetting a few.

[stefcep2]

@ daedalus

If I'm asking people to part with 500 Euro for a product (and that's with a vital component missing), and people are asking the same basic business question then I will damn well make sure I have at the very least an automated email reply.

As for it being a hobby or a business, it should not matter. Hobbies can be expensive, and profitable-I'm risking a large sum of money, i don't care if the seller thinks themselves as a hobby or a business, at that price its minimum that they communicate how much and how long to get it. Its a basic business transaction question. If they are SOOOOO busy to shoot off a 10 second email, then make it auto reply. Is that too much to ask?

(BTW what I bought came from a reputable source, it wasn't just cobbled together. It still doesn't work.)

[YouKnowWho]

Originally Posted by grelbfarlk

There's also the GBA-1000, Hese's A4000ATX, Edu Arana's A2000ATX, the AA3000+, that other MicroATX A500-alike (again from Hese I think), probably forgetting a few.

This is all true grielbfarlk.

However, none of these are are a finished ready product. They seem like boards that you have to assemble yourself, right? Rip parts of old boards. Only one AGA chipset version too...the 4000. The most likely customers there are those who have battery damaged 4000s and willing to take a risk to rip it all apart to transplant chips.

Look, I'm not saying this is a bad way to go. It is certain better than no motherboard at all. So the fact that the schematics are preserved, improved upon, purchasable as a real board is a great starting point already. Personally I know that I would not want to be assembling a full motherboard. I'd rather leave it to the pros who have the correct machines that automate the soldering process, ensure quality, long term reliability, function.

And this is where this iComp A1200 reloaded holds so much promise for someone like me. I can't believe I'm alone in this, surely. It's AGA. It's wedge - my favourite format for the Amiga. It's READY and complete, tested, configured, out of the box go - very satisfying, zero frustration. And since I've bought iComp's stuff before, the quality has been lovely in my experience. People complain about some USB thing...but I avoided that because so I got lucky. Personally, I find it sacrilege to have USB on an Amiga. I don't see a need for it personally.

...WAIT A MINUTE....

I just went back to the A1200 Reloaded page to check if it will have USB on it as I spoke about the USB on Amiga. It won't have it by default.

iComp note that A1200 can have "USB functionality can be added with the X-Surf-100 version of RapidRoad. This is the lowest-cost version of the product, yet the one with the highest-performing interface. Since this connector is part of the 32-bit IO subsystem, it will meet or exceed Z3 speed.".

But X-Surf-100 is a Zorro card. Will the A1200 Reloaded have a Zorro slot? What is this "32-bit IO subsystem"

I didn't notice this before. Is iComp going to give me what I'm asking for?

[trixster]

Wrong again. AA3000+ can be purchased fully assembled by Hese and it has aga

[Daedalus]

Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

Am I the only one who remembers 320MB/s Ultra-SCSI LVD? Granted I don't know the nuts and bolts but I don't believe that was serial

Nope. Do you know what LVD stands for? Single-ended parallel signals simply couldn't deal with the speeds SCSI required, so it used differential signalling instead, which dramatically increased the cost of drives, cables, terminators, and required very careful design. Even so, LVD parallel SCSI was outmoded by SAS, which is serial.

Shielding around cable a solution?

Around the cable, and between each signal, perhaps. That's a lot of cores. But you can suggest that to whichever contractor you choose.

Hey, experts who know the details can ponder and look at a viable solution. Clearly there are a lot of 1200s in the wild, and if they can sell these people barely needed 1260s, I'm quite certain there would be at least 3x that many people buying a decent RTG solution for the 1200.

That's some solid market research. Use that for funding your manufacturing run.

Seems he has all the pieces in place, and plenty of knowledge. AND replied to emails, allowed orders, processes them quickly, efficiently - imagine that!

You never answered me before when I asked where you could buy an A1200 Reloaded.

Originally Posted by stevelord

As I understand it a smart guy called Rob once made a thing called the Z-500.

Je me présente

There should be an equivalently accessible set of pins via the trapdoor slot on the A1200, is that right? I'm not fussed whether it's Z-II or not, I'm looking at whether or not there's sufficient access for RTG to work.

It's not as simple as that unfortunately. The A500's side port is almost 100% of a Zorro-II slot. The A1200's trapdoor isn't, so further logic is required. It's doable of course, and has been done, but it needs more logic to work.

If so, it should be possible to have something in the trapdoor, but obviously you have issues around what you do with RAM, CPUs etc. that would follow.

Indeed, the main issue is the physical need to insert a device between the accelerator and the motherboard connector, which won't fit with any full-sized accelerator unless you have a larger case than the wedge A1200 or Checkmate A1500.

Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

However....what is the deal with the RIBBON CABLE on that ZZ9000? :-)

It connects to the video port of a big-box Amiga to provide a native video passthrough. It doesn't carry any Zorro signals.

Originally Posted by stefcep2

@ daedalus
As for it being a hobby or a business, it should not matter. Hobbies can be expensive, and profitable-I'm risking a large sum of money, i don't care if the seller thinks themselves as a hobby or a business, at that price its minimum that they communicate how much and how long to get it.

So how much have you paid them so far?

Its a basic business transaction question. If they are SOOOOO busy to shoot off a 10 second email, then make it auto reply. Is that too much to ask?

Yes, as before. If they get four hours a week to work on their hobby, and they have to spend two hours of that replying to a hundred emails, why would they bother? I know I wouldn't.

(BTW what I bought came from a reputable source, it wasn't just cobbled together. It still doesn't work.)

So claim your money back. Those GBS units are mostly rubbish clones anyway, it's unsurprising that some are found to not work.

Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

But X-Surf-100 is a Zorro card. Will the A1200 Reloaded have a Zorro slot?

No.

What is this "32-bit IO subsystem"

It's an I/O system that's 32-bits wide.

I didn't notice this before. Is iComp going to give me what I'm asking for?

Why don't you ask them?

[grelbfarlk]

Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

This is all true grielbfarlk.

However, none of these are are a finished ready product. They seem like boards that you have to assemble yourself, right? Rip parts of old boards. Only one AGA chipset version too...the 4000. The most likely customers there are those who have battery damaged 4000s and willing to take a risk to rip it all apart to transplant chips.

Eh.... Some people might transplant parts I guess, I think mostly people are buying up new old stock chips from Analogic or Amibay to have their new motherboards built.


The GBA-1000 design was released with the no commercial sales, not for profit as I recall. That doesn't mean it isn't done however. And it has a slot for the GBA-Picasso (which I thought Matze's PII+ was based on, not sure about that). Also it comes with an 060 accelerator option. And the best part it isn't a wedge!



Also the RTG solution Jens is promising is not really well defined. I'm hoping for something connected right to the CPU bus and presumably fast and maybe an off the shelf GPU, but you never know. It could just be some stupid framebuffer with fast RAM-we don't know yet.

Originally Posted by Daedalus

Indeed, the main issue is the physical need to insert a device between the accelerator and the motherboard connector, which won't fit with any full-sized accelerator unless you have a larger case than the wedge A1200 or Checkmate A1500.

I swore I heard, maybe even in this thread that the Checkmate is too narrow to even fit a BlizzardPPC+BVision in?

And that's why Chucky should go with his idea of building a Zorro interface that hangs off the custom chips instead, like Alice and something else. But then you have the problem with the shameful A1200 design that there are only 24-bit address lines except for the 32-bit accelerator slot-I think.

[YouKnowWho]

Originally Posted by trixster

Wrong again. AA3000+ can be purchased fully assembled by Hese and it has aga

That's very impressive. I'd buy one of those for another project.

Where can I buy a finished one and how much is it?

[YouKnowWho]

Originally Posted by Daedalus

Nope. Do you know what LVD stands for?

Yes, Low Voltage Differential - and I remember that fully from memory. I did not google that. I hope I remember this fully. I had a Adapted dual U320LVD card once upon a time, with a few 15K RPM drives on it. That was something to hear booting up.

And if I remember right, you could have quite a bit of distance on the cable on these cards.

Originally Posted by Daedalus

You never answered me before when I asked where you could buy an A1200 Reloaded.

This is a very stupid question to ask. I believe I noted a few times that A1200 is not here yet. This is clearly noted on iComp website. Oh, and when I asked about ETA with my order, I got a reply that explained some very nice details I didn't even expect. No where does it say it is for sale like WARP1260 clearly does.

Originally Posted by Daedalus

It's not as simple as that unfortunately. The A500's side port is almost 100% of a Zorro-II slot. The A1200's trapdoor isn't, so further logic is required. It's doable of course, and has been done, but it needs more logic to work.

That's basically been done, over and over and over again...has it not?

Originally Posted by Daedalus

Indeed, the main issue is the physical need to insert a device between the accelerator and the motherboard connector, which won't fit with any full-sized accelerator unless you have a larger case than the wedge A1200 or Checkmate A1500.

Originally Posted by Daedalus

Yes, not ideal to be limited to the A1500, hence the goal/thinking should be to make the RTG solution work in standard A1200 to appeal to broad audience.

Originally Posted by Daedalus

What is this "32-bit IO subsystem"
It's an I/O system that's 32-bits wide.

Why don't you ask them?

So you don't know, yet you can see clearly the A1200 Reloaded is via very low height X-Surf-100 Zorro card, which means this could be a Zorro slot solution onboard the Reloaded A1200 potentially.

Maybe I will ask. I bet you I'll get a response.

[YouKnowWho]

Originally Posted by grelbfarlk

Eh.... Some people might transplant parts I guess, I think mostly people are buying up new old stock chips from Analogic or Amibay to have their new motherboards built.

The GBA-1000 design was released with the no commercial sales, not for profit as I recall. That doesn't mean it isn't done however. And it has a slot for the GBA-Picasso (which I thought Matze's PII+ was based on, not sure about that). Also it comes with an 060 accelerator option. And the best part it isn't a wedge!

Also the RTG solution Jens is promising is not really well defined. I'm hoping for something connected right to the CPU bus and presumably fast and maybe an off the shelf GPU, but you never know. It could just be some stupid framebuffer with fast RAM-we don't know yet.

For sure it makes sense to have a path for old/failed boards to be rebuilt and chipset to be utilized and brought back to life. I applaud that. The issue is that it's not a great appeal, because the user base for that solution is always going to be way way smaller than finished goods in my view. Looking at the TF1260 link shared here, all those people "declaring interest" want finished boards, not a lego set to put together.

GBA1000 - nice, BUT...so few A1000s out there. They are almost always showing their age, when not cost so much it's not worth it considering what a 1200 goes for, and in the end for that type of money you probably want to keep it original. It is really some hard core A1000 nostalgia fans that will put up with the GBA1000. I think there is a better way to solve the A1000 problem personally than GBA1000.

It is true that the RTG solution is not defined on the iComp page. Could be because they aren't sure about it. Could be they want to leave a pleasant surprise. Just like that 32-bit IO subsystem the X-Surf-100, which is a Zorro card will apparently plug into. What's that all about really? Seem to me like this A1200 Reloaded will take a slim Zorro card. Is there a way to plug that into this new motherboard and will iComp do more for it? Who knows?

[YouKnowWho]

Originally Posted by stefcep2

@ daedalus

If I'm asking people to part with 500 Euro for a product (and that's with a vital component missing), and people are asking the same basic business question then I will damn well make sure I have at the very least an automated email reply.

As for it being a hobby or a business, it should not matter. Hobbies can be expensive, and profitable-I'm risking a large sum of money, i don't care if the seller thinks themselves as a hobby or a business, at that price its minimum that they communicate how much and how long to get it. Its a basic business transaction question. If they are SOOOOO busy to shoot off a 10 second email, then make it auto reply. Is that too much to ask?

(BTW what I bought came from a reputable source, it wasn't just cobbled together. It still doesn't work.)

I actually faced this dumb hobby excuse a few times already.

To say it is dumb is insufficient I think.

If the excuse is that it is a hobby, then you are trying to deliver something through skill and time and someone wants to help you carry the expense of it by offering financial support because they may not have the skill or time to do what you are trying to deliver for the benefit of many. If you don't need these support resources to share the financial load, good on you. Say so and let's all not waste time. If you would appreciate recouping some of your investment of time and money, then take example from those who do it right. Look at all the kick-starters, or other efforts...NONE of them have ever had the dead silence of WARP1260.

I've noted this with a few on here who took that indefensible stance. It's as if they hold people who want to support them in contempt.

At that point I'm like...keep your precious hobby device to yourself. Nicely done. Enjoy. God bless. May it bring you endless joy.

They keep this up it will be just 17 guys trading hardware between themselves soon.

[grelbfarlk]

The problem and feature of it being a hobby is, people do it just to do it. These people have normal jobs which usually pay far more than what they make doing it as a hobby so you're limited to what people have to spend of their free time on it. If it comes down to a builder has to spend $20,000 on parts to build a batch a batch of 100 boards, then include the cost of developing it.

Then they have to spend their precious time assembling the things. Which again, usually they will find working their normal job more profitable or their personal time not working is worth more.

Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

I actually faced this dumb hobby excuse a few times already.

To say it is dumb is insufficient I think.

If the excuse is that it is a hobby, then you are trying to deliver something through skill and time and someone wants to help you carry the expense of it by offering financial support because they may not have the skill or time to do what you are trying to deliver for the benefit of many. If you don't need these support resources to share the financial load, good on you. Say so and let's all not waste time. If you would appreciate recouping some of your investment of time and money, then take example from those who do it right. Look at all the kick-starters, or other efforts...NONE of them have ever had the dead silence of WARP1260.

I've noted this with a few on here who took that indefensible stance. It's as if they hold people who want to support them in contempt.

At that point I'm like...keep your precious hobby device to yourself. Nicely done. Enjoy. God bless. May it bring you endless joy.

They keep this up it will be just 17 guys trading hardware between themselves soon.

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by grelbfarlk

There's also the GBA-1000, Hese's A4000ATX, Edu Arana's A2000ATX, the AA3000+, that other MicroATX A500-alike (again from Hese I think), probably forgetting a few.

Which of these has RTG onboard?

[Chucky]

Ofcourse Jens can do it on his own board. it is all "just to add it"..

Ribboncable on ZZ9000 only contains the RGB signals. it is not really highspeeds and sensible as the zorro data.. but thuis is something you should know as you think this is so simple.

and again about TF1260 availbility. it have been easy. just as you are so entitled. not on YOUR ways. you know. the world is NOT circiling around you at all. facebook did not fit. amibay did not fit.. you know what is ironical? I sold several cards via a direct message. HERE at EAB!.. all it was was a "can I get a TF1260?" message.. that was the only thing needed.. but being entitled and post crap on forums. nahh.. however. that was not needed for you either that after a while of whining that people did not go YOUR way. "060 was not for you" and true. 060 is not for everyone. but sure it is for many.

and guess what. same will be with RTG. when you will notice that there are if and butts with that aswell..

About ReLoaded.. I am very sceptic it will be released.. to be honest. it have been in development too long already..

[trixster]

Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

That's very impressive. I'd buy one of those for another project.

Where can I buy a finished one and how much is it?

Amibay

https://www.amibay.com/showthread.ph...ight=Aa3000%2B

https://www.amibay.com/showthread.ph...ight=Aa3000%2B

Hese occasionally posts on here. He is a hobbyist so as others have pointed out he may not reply instantly, or at all.

For all custom chips, ICs, the BOM for passives, the pcbs, you’re looking at £1000. Assembly of motherboard and busboard is iro £265

You then need to factor in a case, psu, keyboard etc.

[stefcep2]

Originally Posted by Daedalus

So how much have you paid them so far?

Why would I pay someone to tell me how much for and when I can get their product?

Yes, as before. If they get four hours a week to work on their hobby, and they have to spend two hours of that replying to a hundred emails, why would they bother? I know I wouldn't.

It takes two hours of their time for an auto reply email to go out?

So claim your money back. Those GBS units are mostly rubbish clones anyway, it's unsurprising that some are found to not work.

1. I have to send the unit back. I don't trust him to send me the money back......now why I would think that? At least I now have a box and a cable...


2. The unit I sent him worked fine bar some small spots. I wanted him to apply the fix and put it in a nice box box with a proper amiga cable. The unit I got back inside the box isn't the same one I sent him.


3. Why not test before sending out?



Look we'll agree to disagree, Not a single one of your arguments has convinced me that its the buyer whose being unreasonable here.

[stefcep2]

Originally Posted by YouKnowWho

I actually faced this dumb hobby excuse a few times already.

To say it is dumb is insufficient I think.

If the excuse is that it is a hobby, then you are trying to deliver something through skill and time and someone wants to help you carry the expense of it by offering financial support because they may not have the skill or time to do what you are trying to deliver for the benefit of many. If you don't need these support resources to share the financial load, good on you. Say so and let's all not waste time. If you would appreciate recouping some of your investment of time and money, then take example from those who do it right. Look at all the kick-starters, or other efforts...NONE of them have ever had the dead silence of WARP1260.

I've noted this with a few on here who took that indefensible stance. It's as if they hold people who want to support them in contempt.

At that point I'm like...keep your precious hobby device to yourself. Nicely done. Enjoy. God bless. May it bring you endless joy.

They keep this up it will be just 17 guys trading hardware between themselves soon.

This is how i understand it: When it comes to niche hobbies, you have enthusiasts and then you have the "ultra's".



The enthusiast will settle for an '030, some RAM, maybe an FPU, compact flash card, wifi card and call it day.


The "ultras" want to have the best that is possible. 80 mHz '060, RTG network card, USB, fast drives sound card. Possibly things they wanted "back in the day" but couldn't afford. 30 years later, they can. And so they put up with whatever from anyone who promises to deliver that. Because they want it. A lot. Its emotional, not rational so its pointless to have a rational argument.



What I find curious is what actually happens when they actually turn it on and actually do something with it?


Recently I cobbled together an amithlon PIII system for literally nothing. Geforce 256 hardware acceleration, Soundblaster, ethernet, USB, scsi dvd rom, all works. It smokes my A4000 68060 cybervision 64, cyberscsi Fastata. The software that uses RTG runs faster. And it actually feels like a big box Amiga workstation, but on steroids. No AGA, but that's what an A1200 with fast ram could do well..

[trixster]

Amiga in the c21 is a hobby, nobody has to justify anything and it all defies logical sense.

[YouKnowWho]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

Which of these has RTG onboard?

None of them do, but all of these have built in Zorro capability so not hard to throw a card in there at that point. It is the 1200 that faces a wall without zorro.

[YouKnowWho]

Originally Posted by grelbfarlk

The problem and feature of it being a hobby is, people do it just to do it. These people have normal jobs which usually pay far more than what they make doing it as a hobby so you're limited to what people have to spend of their free time on it. If it comes down to a builder has to spend $20,000 on parts to build a batch a batch of 100 boards, then include the cost of developing it.

Then they have to spend their precious time assembling the things. Which again, usually they will find working their normal job more profitable or their personal time not working is worth more.

I hear you fully.

However Chucky claimed he sold 500, so at that point I think he's selling things to recover costs or to make a bit of scratch on the side.

[YouKnowWho]

Originally Posted by Chucky

Ofcourse Jens can do it on his own board. it is all "just to add it"..

Ribboncable on ZZ9000 only contains the RGB signals. it is not really highspeeds and sensible as the zorro data.. but thuis is something you should know as you think this is so simple.

and again about TF1260 availbility. it have been easy. just as you are so entitled. not on YOUR ways. you know. the world is NOT circiling around you at all. facebook did not fit. amibay did not fit.. you know what is ironical? I sold several cards via a direct message. HERE at EAB!.. all it was was a "can I get a TF1260?" message.. that was the only thing needed.. but being entitled and post crap on forums. nahh.. however. that was not needed for you either that after a while of whining that people did not go YOUR way. "060 was not for you" and true. 060 is not for everyone. but sure it is for many.

and guess what. same will be with RTG. when you will notice that there are if and butts with that aswell..

About ReLoaded.. I am very sceptic it will be released.. to be honest. it have been in development too long already..

Great.

I'm not on Facebook because it is a swamp of SPAM.

Amibay won't take new user registrations.

At at no point in my post in March did it cross your mind to just come out with it and say that you're offering them for sale at X amount.

You maybe clever enough to design them, but you're quite obtuse when it comes to getting stuff out there into people's hands.

Consider that I likely represent a large slice of people, who would easily click and buy from Amiga Store, delivering extra support to you. Certainly this group would understand that a reseller needs to make $50 on reseller to cover costs and pay the bills.

iComp, from all I've seen has a track record of delivering projects. They delivered many to date. On the A1200 Reloaded post he notes that he just got DB23 quality ports made, and is now working on forward engineering the Budgie and memory chips for this application. Seem that it is inching along nicely, and it will certainly be exciting when it arrives.