Cheaper Amiga USB?

Lips2k8 · 26 February 2009, 17:16

Hello EAB... I have been looking into adding USB to my amiga 1200 but have discovered all the available methods are too expensive - dont get me wrong they are awesome peices of kit but some people like myself dont have a lot of cash for hobbies. I am unable to work due to a long term illness and I am sure there are others who struggle finacialy for many different reasons so that made me think about creating a budget usb interface for the amiga. So far I have come up with an idea that has been borrowed from the ZX Spectrum hardware guru's - connection of the usb host interface via the cpu... I have a device for my ZX spectrum called the ZX Mattrix (google it

) it conects to the expansion bus of the spectrum which is basically the CPU bus and gives full usb funtionality, so far usb mice, and usb drives are supported but its all software driven so totally flexible - could something like this be acheived with the amiga? I refuse to belive that I need to sell a kidney to get usb on my amiga where as the device I purchased for my ZX Spectrum cost me only 40 euros a year ago !!! any idea's?

alexh · 26 February 2009, 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lips2k8

I am unable to work due to a long term illness

You'd be amazed how many people there are like that... a 20,000% increase in the UK over the last 25 years!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lips2k8

I refuse to belive that I need to sell a kidney to get usb on my amiga

£75 sounds high when compared to PC stuff but it isn't that much when you consider you're not just getting the hardware, you're getting the Poseidon stack and all the classes that come with it.

What might be keeping the price higher that it could be is the only people selling them are Amiga shops. While I do not know for sure, I imagine these are relatively high profit margin parts, the profits from which they offset against losses on their other stock.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lips2k8

So far I have come up with an idea that has been borrowed from the ZX Spectrum hardware guru's - connection of the usb host interface via the cpu.

Erm yeah, that's how all USB hosts work. The Subway connects effectively direct to the CPU on the Amiga using the clk port.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lips2k8

where as the device I purchased for my ZX Spectrum cost me only 40 euros a year ago !!! any idea's?

The Subway (which is retailing at €79) uses the same chip as I think is in the ZX Spectrum interface. The UHC124. I make that chip, while it was not a chip I personally worked on, my company made it and still makes it today... I sell that chip to members of the Amiga community at a price no-one in the world could beat.

Your main problem though is software. The USB stack took many many years to write. If you started now you'd be finished in about... four years (assuming you were any good). With Poseidon (the Amiga USB stack) being now tied to E3B products (Subway & Deneb) and no way to buy licenses for 3rd party hardware you are I am afraid a bit stuffed

Finally, native USB sucks on the Amiga anyhow. I dunno why anyone would want it. Everything that you can do with native USB on Amiga has been done (usually better) with much cheaper simpler options on other interfaces. The CPU overhead of the software stack, coupled with incompatibility with things which bang the hardware (like games) makes it less that desirable IMO.

DoogUK · 26 February 2009, 23:31

I have to agree with Alex, short of using thumb drives..every other need has been fulfilled with different interfaces.

I can't justify spending that amount of money on a Deneb/Subway when there are so many work arounds.

alexh · 26 February 2009, 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoogUK

short of using thumb drives..every other need has been fulfilled with different interfaces.

Even that has been fulfilled. On the A1200 I use a PCMCIA->CF card as though it were a thumb drive.

Plug it into the PC USB card reader... write some files... take it over to the Amiga, put it in the adapter... plug into the Amiga... copy the files onto the Amiga or run locally.

No difference to a USB thumb drive in terms of usage.

It's faster (16-bit vs 8-bit). Less CPU overhead (no USB stack, no mass storage class).

DoogUK · 26 February 2009, 23:46

Yeah pretty much the same thing on my 2nd A1200....i have the compact flash port on the outside so it's just a case of taking the card and plugging it into the Peecee etc.......shame you could'nt hot swap or i'd have one of those twin ide-compact flash adapters.

alexh · 26 February 2009, 23:48

For Mice you can use an open-source PS2->Amiga adapter can be made for as little as £3! It plugs direct to the Amiga mouse port which makes it work in all games (unlike USB mice!) and works fine with the latest USB mice which have PS2 fallback mode via an adapter (all of them?)

For Gamepads... again an open-source adapter can convert sony PS1/PS2 pads into CD32 compatible pads, once more they plug into the regular joystick port and so work great in all games (unlike USB HID gamepads).

Mass storage you can use IDE->CF, IDE->SD, PCMCIA->CF or even SCSI->IDE->SD adapters, these are all native interfaces and so are 16-bit (possibly even 32-bit) and work much faster than a Subway.

I like the Subway, I like USB, I just think you need to get it AFTER you've got everything else, if you still feel the need

amigakit.com · 26 February 2009, 23:51

Poseidon is a great USB stack which works very well. I use it daily and without it I wouldn't be able to use my Epson USB scanner. Poseidon USB makes it quick and easy for us to prep hard disks without opening the computer using USB to IDE adapters. Additionally it supports SATA with USB to SATA adapters, MP3 playback with MP3 USB adapters and selected USB network adapters. Using USB keyboards and optical wireless mice, you can configure the multimedia keys easily.

There are a whole range of other devices supported here:
http://www.platon42.de/poseidon.html

There are other USB stacks available for Amigas such as
http://aminet.net/package/driver/other/anaiis

DoogUK · 26 February 2009, 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by amigakit.com

Poseidon is a great USB stack which works very well. I use it daily and without it I wouldn't be able to use my Epson USB scanner. Poseidon USB makes it quick and easy for us to prep hard disks without opening the computer using USB to IDE adapters. Additionally it supports SATA with USB to SATA adapters, MP3 playback with MP3 USB adapters and selected USB network adapters. Using USB keyboards and optical wireless mice, you can configure the multimedia keys easily.

There are a whole range of other devices supported here:
http://www.platon42.de/poseidon.html

There are other USB stacks available for Amigas such as
http://aminet.net/package/driver/other/anaiis

But they don't "stack" up to poisedon (excuse the pun).

amigakit.com · 26 February 2009, 23:57

I agree, Poseidon is very good, obviously a lot of hard work by Chris Hodges.

But it is very encouraging to see other stacks (still in development) that work with a small foot print on 16-bit Amigas as well.

DoogUK · 26 February 2009, 23:57

i sometimes think that they have made it unregisterable to keep the value up...in the peecee world such a necessity would have been hacked a long time ago.

Lips2k8 · 27 February 2009, 00:55

The reason I would like usb is for printers, scanners and networking really... mouse and keyboard have work arounds like you say - lol sorry if I sounded stupid... I wasnt sure how the amiga clockport worked!!! But still - I would like to come up with a cheaper alternative for usb on the amiga... pcmcia? or perhaps we can use the ide adapter to interface usb with some how?

Peter · 27 February 2009, 01:38

Personally - I think it is very positive that we have new Hardware in development for the Amiga available now together with what I think is commercial quality software to work with it - I KNOW that there are work-around software solutions available but I think we should all support the hardware & software that is available now and support it via distributors like Amigakit - as users we must support the Amiga if we want to continue to use it - this is is is not 1989! it is 2009!

How many other computers are as well supported as ours?

I say, if you want to enjoy your hobby - Spend your money or save and invest when you can!

Zetr0 · 27 February 2009, 01:45

@Lips2k8

the problem with this level of hardware design, it takes time.

I have no doubt that USB 1.1 driver could be wrote to work with the PCMCIA port, however, the time it takes to design, test, re-design, yet more testing is HUGE, and then that only is the driver, you still have a stack to put on top.

Alexh and I spoke of this I think last year, about adpating some linux drivers for a product that the company he works with develops, I also believe he had a hand in its development at the time.

but there are so many factors to this.... like legally whom owns the driver for the hardware? how will this interface with the existing USB stacks ? Limmitations etc.

personally I hate USB, give me Firewire anyday, so much better!

-------------

I can understand your frustration, indeed i do share that from time to time, however take a step back, see if there is a way to add the device to your amiga without having to get USB..

DoogUK · 27 February 2009, 01:46

But this is 2009, and i expect to pay 25 quid for a new wheel bearing for my 18 yr old car, not 88 quid for a 2008 model wheel bearing that doesnt fit, or a new abs sensor that doesnt talk to the old car

Peter · 27 February 2009, 01:57

Doog - I'm too p*ssed to understand that...

Lips2k8 · 27 February 2009, 02:21

ok thats fair enuff... ok let me tackle this from another angle...if I was to use the free drivers/stack that is posted earlier in this topic could i use the zx matrix's usb module on the amiga? how hard would it be to interface?

coze · 27 February 2009, 04:49

there's also a free usb stack for amiga called anaiis. though it's probably no way as rich as poseidon for supported modules.

http://aminet.net/package/driver/other/anaiis

alexh · 27 February 2009, 08:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zetr0

I have no doubt that USB 1.1 driver could be wrote to work with the PCMCIA port [snip] Alexh and I spoke of this I think last year, about adpating some linux drivers for a product that the company he works with develops, I also believe he had a hand in its development at the time.

The CFU950 is the chip which we make. It is (the only!) 16-bit PCMCIA to USB1.1 chip. All I said was there were drivers for linux for this chip which were opensource.

I sent E3B some devkits a few years ago about making them into a product but the Subway was such a big success and this required so much work it didn't seem much point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lips2k8

if I was to use the free drivers/stack that is posted earlier in this topic could i use the zx matrix's usb module on the amiga?

No.

You'd have to design a new PCB, find somewhere to make the PCB's, source all the chips 'n' parts find someone to assemble and test the PCB's etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lips2k8

how hard would it be to interface?

Depends if all the drivers are open source and if one of them already uses the UHC124 chip. Could be easy... might be hard.

Just get a SCSI card and use a SCSI scanner! Get a PCMCIA ethernet card and use a network printer.

Lips2k8 · 27 February 2009, 09:24

fair enough... so the only feasable way to get usb on amiga is subway - ok Amigakit cant you do a budget version of it? perhaps just the hardware? or supply it with a cut down version of the software? Maybe sell it without the usb port plate? 80 quid is a big no no but 50 - 60 wouldnt be so bad.

keropi · 27 February 2009, 09:32

the usb ports cost 4? 5? 6eur? no big difference. and subways where always bundled with some version of poseidon... why would you get one without it? it would be useless... like all things in the world it costs a specific amount of money, I cannot see how one can make a bundle version of it...

26 February 2009, 17:16	#1
Lips2k8 Registered User Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: wolverhampton Posts: 51	Cheaper Amiga USB? Hello EAB... I have been looking into adding USB to my amiga 1200 but have discovered all the available methods are too expensive - dont get me wrong they are awesome peices of kit but some people like myself dont have a lot of cash for hobbies. I am unable to work due to a long term illness and I am sure there are others who struggle finacialy for many different reasons so that made me think about creating a budget usb interface for the amiga. So far I have come up with an idea that has been borrowed from the ZX Spectrum hardware guru's - connection of the usb host interface via the cpu... I have a device for my ZX spectrum called the ZX Mattrix (google it ) it conects to the expansion bus of the spectrum which is basically the CPU bus and gives full usb funtionality, so far usb mice, and usb drives are supported but its all software driven so totally flexible - could something like this be acheived with the amiga? I refuse to belive that I need to sell a kidney to get usb on my amiga where as the device I purchased for my ZX Spectrum cost me only 40 euros a year ago !!! any idea's?

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26 February 2009, 23:31	#3
DoogUK Doogster Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Dorset Posts: 1,069	I have to agree with Alex, short of using thumb drives..every other need has been fulfilled with different interfaces. I can't justify spending that amount of money on a Deneb/Subway when there are so many work arounds.

26 February 2009, 23:46	#5
DoogUK Doogster Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Dorset Posts: 1,069	Yeah pretty much the same thing on my 2nd A1200....i have the compact flash port on the outside so it's just a case of taking the card and plugging it into the Peecee etc.......shame you could'nt hot swap or i'd have one of those twin ide-compact flash adapters.

26 February 2009, 23:48	#6
alexh Thalion Webshrine Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Oxford Posts: 14,475	For Mice you can use an open-source PS2->Amiga adapter can be made for as little as £3! It plugs direct to the Amiga mouse port which makes it work in all games (unlike USB mice!) and works fine with the latest USB mice which have PS2 fallback mode via an adapter (all of them?) For Gamepads... again an open-source adapter can convert sony PS1/PS2 pads into CD32 compatible pads, once more they plug into the regular joystick port and so work great in all games (unlike USB HID gamepads). Mass storage you can use IDE->CF, IDE->SD, PCMCIA->CF or even SCSI->IDE->SD adapters, these are all native interfaces and so are 16-bit (possibly even 32-bit) and work much faster than a Subway. I like the Subway, I like USB, I just think you need to get it AFTER you've got everything else, if you still feel the need

26 February 2009, 23:51	#7
amigakit.com Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: www.amigakit.com Posts: 2,061	Poseidon is a great USB stack which works very well. I use it daily and without it I wouldn't be able to use my Epson USB scanner. Poseidon USB makes it quick and easy for us to prep hard disks without opening the computer using USB to IDE adapters. Additionally it supports SATA with USB to SATA adapters, MP3 playback with MP3 USB adapters and selected USB network adapters. Using USB keyboards and optical wireless mice, you can configure the multimedia keys easily. There are a whole range of other devices supported here: http://www.platon42.de/poseidon.html There are other USB stacks available for Amigas such as http://aminet.net/package/driver/other/anaiis

26 February 2009, 23:57	#9
amigakit.com Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: www.amigakit.com Posts: 2,061	I agree, Poseidon is very good, obviously a lot of hard work by Chris Hodges. But it is very encouraging to see other stacks (still in development) that work with a small foot print on 16-bit Amigas as well.

27 February 2009, 00:55	#11
Lips2k8 Registered User Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: wolverhampton Posts: 51	The reason I would like usb is for printers, scanners and networking really... mouse and keyboard have work arounds like you say - lol sorry if I sounded stupid... I wasnt sure how the amiga clockport worked!!! But still - I would like to come up with a cheaper alternative for usb on the amiga... pcmcia? or perhaps we can use the ide adapter to interface usb with some how?

27 February 2009, 01:38	#12
Peter Still an Amiga user Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Kent Age: 55 Posts: 2,715	Personally - I think it is very positive that we have new Hardware in development for the Amiga available now together with what I think is commercial quality software to work with it - I KNOW that there are work-around software solutions available but I think we should all support the hardware & software that is available now and support it via distributors like Amigakit - as users we must support the Amiga if we want to continue to use it - this is is is not 1989! it is 2009! How many other computers are as well supported as ours? I say, if you want to enjoy your hobby - Spend your money or save and invest when you can!

27 February 2009, 01:45	#13
Zetr0 Ya' like it Retr0? Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: United Kingdom Age: 49 Posts: 9,768	@Lips2k8 the problem with this level of hardware design, it takes time. I have no doubt that USB 1.1 driver could be wrote to work with the PCMCIA port, however, the time it takes to design, test, re-design, yet more testing is HUGE, and then that only is the driver, you still have a stack to put on top. Alexh and I spoke of this I think last year, about adpating some linux drivers for a product that the company he works with develops, I also believe he had a hand in its development at the time. but there are so many factors to this.... like legally whom owns the driver for the hardware? how will this interface with the existing USB stacks ? Limmitations etc. personally I hate USB, give me Firewire anyday, so much better! ------------- I can understand your frustration, indeed i do share that from time to time, however take a step back, see if there is a way to add the device to your amiga without having to get USB..

27 February 2009, 01:46	#14
DoogUK Doogster Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Dorset Posts: 1,069	But this is 2009, and i expect to pay 25 quid for a new wheel bearing for my 18 yr old car, not 88 quid for a 2008 model wheel bearing that doesnt fit, or a new abs sensor that doesnt talk to the old car

27 February 2009, 01:57	#15
Peter Still an Amiga user Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Kent Age: 55 Posts: 2,715	Doog - I'm too p*ssed to understand that...

27 February 2009, 02:21	#16
Lips2k8 Registered User Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: wolverhampton Posts: 51	ok thats fair enuff... ok let me tackle this from another angle...if I was to use the free drivers/stack that is posted earlier in this topic could i use the zx matrix's usb module on the amiga? how hard would it be to interface?

27 February 2009, 04:49	#17
coze hastala vista winny vista Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: mt fuji Age: 46 Posts: 1,335	there's also a free usb stack for amiga called anaiis. though it's probably no way as rich as poseidon for supported modules. http://aminet.net/package/driver/other/anaiis

27 February 2009, 09:24	#19
Lips2k8 Registered User Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: wolverhampton Posts: 51	fair enough... so the only feasable way to get usb on amiga is subway - ok Amigakit cant you do a budget version of it? perhaps just the hardware? or supply it with a cut down version of the software? Maybe sell it without the usb port plate? 80 quid is a big no no but 50 - 60 wouldnt be so bad.

27 February 2009, 09:32	#20
keropi . Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Ioannina/Greece Posts: 5,040	the usb ports cost 4? 5? 6eur? no big difference. and subways where always bundled with some version of poseidon... why would you get one without it? it would be useless... like all things in the world it costs a specific amount of money, I cannot see how one can make a bundle version of it...

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