Apple ][ and ][ GS

Twistin'Ghost · 23 August 2001, 21:57

For you usenet freaks, alt.binaries.emulators.misc is hosting a flood of Apple II (TOSEC) images which is quite massive. The most unique part of the flood is the collection of 255 games (or disks, rather) for the II GS, which was their American equivalent to the Amiga 500 and Atari ST. I really haven't messed much with emulation of this machine, but you'll find a lot of the same games as the Amiga and ST from the same era, so that's always fun. And it really wasn't a terrible box. I may have to dig up the latest emulator and see what the haps is. It would be interesting to see how much of that machine's sound is emulated, as it was pretty advanced for its time, as I recall.

Amiga1992 · 23 August 2001, 22:11

The IIGS is an EXCELLENT machine. My cousin had one of the Woz edition, and it was brilliant. It pooped all over PCs... I loved that machine.

Try Out of This world. If the emulator has extra soundcard emulation, it will be brilliant. Most atmospheric version I played thanks to its sound. I do remember my cousin's machine had great sound only because it had that extra card.

By teh way, the IIGS is an 8bit machine. neat eh?

Twistin'Ghost · 23 August 2001, 22:38

8-bit? I don't think so. I am almost certain it was 16-bit.

Twistin'Ghost · 23 August 2001, 22:43

OK, here's what I dug up on this machine:

CPU: Western Design Center 65SC816
Speed: 2.8 Mhz
FPU: none
Motherboard RAM: 256 k
Maximum RAM: 8 MB
Number of sockets: n/a
ROM: 128 k - 1 MB
Data path: 16 bit
Bus speed: 2.8 Mhz
Slots: 7 proprietary (compatible w/Apple II)
SCSI: available via expansion card
Serial Ports: 2
ADB: 1
Floppy: 5.25" Disk ][ or 3.5" Sony 800k, via floppy port
HD: supported
Display: 2 bit color at 640x200, 8 bit color at 320x200 IIe enhanced: 80 column
Sound Output: built in speaker
Power:
Introduced: January 1986
Terminated: mid-1993
Announced in September 1986

Removed picture

Twistin'Ghost · 23 August 2001, 22:47

OK, you will have to excuse (or ignore) the long text description below (from Byte Magazine), which explains how Akira is not completely wrong, as the IIGS retained compatibility with the previous 8-bit Apple II systems:

Here are the most important features of the Apple lI GS: Apple II
compatibility: The Apple II GS will run most Apple II software and
expansion cards. It can run at normal Apple II speed or at a higher
rate that makes most software run two to three times faster. [ Edit
or's note: In this article, "Apple II" refers to the traditional Apple
II computer as defined by the Apple II, II+, lIe, and IIc. ] The Apple
II GS composite video signal has been corrected so that it will be
recorded correctly by a videotape recorder. Apple lie owners can
upgrade to complete II GS compatibility by replacing the motherboard
and back/bottom plate with a II GS retrofit kit. A 16-bit,
6502-compatible processor: With a 16-bit address bus and 8 "bank
address" lines, the Western Design Center's W65C816 can address 256
banks of 64K bytes each, for a total of 16 megabytes. It can also go
into a 6502 mode, where it emulates the 65C02A used in the Apple lIe
and IIc. The processor's accumulator, stack pointer, and all its
registers are 16 bits wide, and its instruction set includes 11 new
addressing modes. Greatly expanded memory capacity: The machine's
architecture reserves space for 8 megabytes of user RAM and 1 megabyte
of system ROM. It comes with 256K bytes of RAM, 128K bytes of system
ROM, and 64K bytes of dedicated sound-wave-form memory, but you will
have to wait for new programs to use most of the memory above the first
128K bytes. Apple currently has plans for 1- and 4-megabyte expansion
cards, although an 8-megabyte card is possible. New graphics
capabilities: The Apple II GS adds two "super hi-res" graphics modes:
200 by 320 pixels with a 16-color palette and 200 by 640 pixels with a
4-color palette: the colors come from a color set of 4096. The machine
can use up to 16 palettes per screen and change palettes and resolution
on a line-by-line basis. Programmers can use two experimental modes: a
640- by 200-pixel, 16-color (with restrictions) palette mode, and a
high-speed "fill mode" variation of the 200 by 320, 16-color mode. New
sound capabilities: The 32-voice Ensoniq Digital Oscillator Chip (DOC),
used in the Ensoniq Mirage sampled-sound music synthesizer, and system
firmware can drive the chip to prod uce up to 15 musical "instruments."
Mouse, keyboard, and disks: A one-button mouse and a detachable
keyboard with keypad are standard equipment. The Apple II GS does not
have an internal disk drive, but you can daisy-chain up to two
800K-byte 3-1/2-inch drives and two 140K-byte 5-1/4-inch drives to the
disk drive port on the rear panel. The system software will come on
3-1/2-inch disks, which silently but forcefully indicates Apple's
intent to phase out the 5-1/4-inch floppy disk. The Toolbox:
Application programs can use built-in code (some in ROM, some in RAM)
to provide a mouse-driven desktop environment and orderly use of system
resources. The Finder: Finder software, supplied with the basic system,
allows users to interact with disks and files using windows, icons, and
a mousedriven cursor (as popularized by the Apple Macintosh). Desk
accessories: The Apple II GS makes available Macintosh-like desk
accessories; some a re available from all programs, and others work
only with programs specifically designed for the Apple II GS. The
Control Panel, accessible from any program, allows the user to change
the date, slot assignments, operating speed, and similar parameters.
New languages and tools: For the software developer, Apple will offer a
6502/65C02/65816 assembler and versions of C and Pascal; the three
languages share a standard editor and linker and allow object code
modules from any source to be used together. For the hobbyist, Apple
has extended the Apple IIe monitor to work in the Apple II GS 16-bit
environment and has added new functions to it. No enhanced, built-in
language: Like the Macintosh (and unlike most other computers), the
Apple II GS contains no built-in language (such as Microsoft BASIC)
that interacts with the machine's new features. Applesoft BASIC is
available in system ROM, but it has no way of directly interacting with
the new Apple II GS features. A new 16-bit operating system: ProDOS 16
extends Apple's ProDOS (which runs on the Apple II+, IIe, and IIc) to
be the standard Apple II GS operating system; it runs on the 65816 in
native 16-bit mode, is functionally similar to the 8-bit ProDOS, and
shares an identical file structure with ProDOS. Apple has also made
slight modifications to the 6502-based ProDOS so that it will run on
the Apple II GS's Apple II emulation mode; this operating system is
named ProDOS 8.

23 August 2001, 23:09

I've used these machines, and I wasn't a big fan. It was most likely because I was biased. When these came out, I was still using the C64/128

btw - There's an A500 in the background of that pic

andreas · 24 August 2001, 17:14

Quote:

Introduced: January 1986
Terminated: mid-1993
Announced in September 1986

I'll be damned. 1986?! That late?

Well I've always been thinking the Apple II era had ended somewhere in 1983/84.
I remember that the first IIe model was introduced by Steve Jobs (and his friend, forgot who) to a wider audience in 1982.
The II GS must definitely have been a machine remarkably less popular as II and IIe, methinks. In all honesty, I haven't heard about its existence until today.

Twistin'Ghost · 24 August 2001, 17:46

The IIGS people were in pretty low numbers. On my BBS, I think there were only 2 users of that machine, and we really gave them a hard time for that! Mind you, Atari ST-bashing was far more fun, even if the IIGS people were very bit as adament that their machine was better than the Amiga.

And yeah, the previous Apple II models were far more popular. No idea why the machine was so unsuccessful...probably because they ignored the rest of the world? Regardless, they had as much shelf space here at the local Software Etc. as did the Amiga. Note, the ST had no shelf space.

Amiga1992 · 24 August 2001, 18:09

Oh, it uses THAT processor. I thought it sticked completely with a stock 6502, accelerated like hell. I remember playing both IIGS and II games... when you booted up if you pressed a key you entered Apple II basic, or if the disk in the drive was for the Apple II, it automatically booted on II mode... A very versatile cpu if you ask me, its not-economic version is used at the SuperCPU C64 accelerator, but it runs at 20Mhz

The Apple IIGS games were terrific, as I said, Out of This World was INCREDIBLE with the Ensoniq soundcard. It is the most atmospheric version I played. I ws terribly disapointed when I played the Amiga version and it had no ingame, cinematic music.

I wonder for how long software was produced after its death. We bought OOTW in early 1993. I dunno why this machine wasn't popular, the Apple II was mainly popular because it was used a LOT at schools.

My stupid cousin gave away this machine to some twat. I wanted it!

thinlega · 04 October 2004, 23:53

man...I would love a appleII GS for the sound applications alone (transwave synth anyone!)...but i think the are quite rare in the uk

fisken uno · 05 October 2004, 00:03

I love the IIGS mainly for the ports of Sierra's AGI games. The IIGS versions were the only ones that did actually have sound fx (woooooooooooow!!)

and the music used a few instruments too. I always wondered why they didn't use it for the Amiga versions (since the amiga was indeed capable of it). But I think the IIGS versions were made after the Amiga versions, and thus uses a better version of AGI.

Chuckles · 05 October 2004, 01:23

My first home computer was an Apple II+, and I was a real Apple fan for years. The Apple II had some areas where it was better than the C64, and some where it wasn't as good. When the IIGS came out, I really wanted one, but before I could ever convince myself to spend that much money, I popped into a store selling A500's just after they came out, and knew as soon as I had checked them out that the Amiga was the better machine, so I bought one that day. I picked up a IIGS from eBay about a year ago and it's a nice little machine, but its no Amiga. One somewhat interesting thing about it that I think I'd heard before but had forgotten had to do with its construction though. The entire machine can be completely disassembled and reassembled with no tools whatsoever, which made the assembly process very simple. There are no screws anywhere, and everything is done with interlocking tabs and such. I replaced the ROM01 motherboard in mine with a ROM03 motherboard to bring it up to the latest version, and that required taking the whole thing apart and putting it together again, but it was a piece of cake to do.

andreas · 05 October 2004, 02:19

Quote:

I love the IIGS mainly for the ports of Sierra's AGI games. The IIGS versions were the only ones that did actually have sound fx (woooooooooooow!!)

You mean the adventures, don't you?
Well, I clearly remember AGI games that HAD sound FX on the Amiga as well: think of the Police Quest series.

fisken uno · 05 October 2004, 03:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by andreas

You mean the adventures, don't you?
Well, I clearly remember AGI games that HAD sound FX on the Amiga as well: think of the Police Quest series.

Huh? I think I need to look this up but I'm 99% sure that there wasn't any SAMPLED sound fx in the amiga version of PQ1. IIRC when you blew the gun, for example, the sound was just generated with beeps, just like the music. Now, the SCI games is a different matter, of course. Unlike most of the PC versions, the SCI versions on the amiga used PCM samples. Correct me if I'm wrong about the AGI ones though, and specify where you found samples and what was sampled.

Amiga1992 · 05 October 2004, 06:01

I wonder WHAT is this doing in prb.WinUAE...

Thread moved to Retrogaming General Discussion!

Chuckles · 05 October 2004, 07:00

I don't know why it was there, but I'm guessing that it must have been there for the past 3 years or so, based on the date of the first post. I didn't realize the thread wasn't a recent one till now.

7-Zark-7 · 05 October 2004, 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by andreas

You mean the adventures, don't you?
Well, I clearly remember AGI games that HAD sound FX on the Amiga as well: think of the Police Quest series.

Granted,I'll bow to other's knowledge over which Sierra adv. used which game engines',but I'd concur with Andreas in adding at least two more Miggy versions-Leisure Suit Larry II, (& I think III, though even sparser than II if memory served), had sporadic sampled FX that did not feature on the PC version-v. notable in sections like the jungle area after Larry escaped the USS Love tub & washed up on that island. LSL 1, of course just emulated the basic bleeping PC version.

Fred the Fop · 05 October 2004, 20:58

You guys must also rememebr that the Apple ][ GS was the machine used to create the great Icom games, Shadowgate, Deja Vu and Uninvited!

fisken uno · 05 October 2004, 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by 7-Zark-7

Granted,I'll bow to other's knowledge over which Sierra adv. used which game engines',but I'd concur with Andreas in adding at least two more Miggy versions-Leisure Suit Larry II, (& I think III, though even sparser than II if memory served), had sporadic sampled FX that did not feature on the PC version-v. notable in sections like the jungle area after Larry escaped the USS Love tub & washed up on that island. LSL 1, of course just emulated the basic bleeping PC version.

Of course Lsl2 and Lsl3 used sound fx. Neither of them were ported to the IIGS, you know why? Because they're not AGI. They used the SCI interpreter that was considered too advanced for the IIGS (but SQ3 was actually planned for release and it's an SCI game, so apparently SCI games were at first planned for the IIGS as well). Note that KQ4 WAS indeed released for the IIGS, and the most common version is using the SCI engine but the IIGS was the AGI version (was also released for PC, IIRC you can download it from HOTU). In order not to get too confused here, it should be pointed out that the SCI engine went through several versions and the PC versions that has midi sounds only and no sound fx are called SCI0. The ones that use the same graphics but has sound fx as well are called SCI01 and there was actually a few released for PC as well; the KQ1 remake, QFG2 and there are two rare versions of SQ3 and LSL3 that uses sound fx. I think ALL the early SCI games were released as SCI01 on the Amiga. The next stage of the SCI interpreter was called SCI1 and used 256 colours on the PC and 32 on the amiga. Both PC and Amiga versions had sound fx as well.

I am still pretty sure though that the IIGS versions of Sierra's AGI games were the only ones that used sampled sound fx, and a few instruments for the music. Download an IIGS emu and a few Sierra games and check it out. they are completely different audio-wise to other platforms. I love them.

23 August 2001, 21:57	#1
Twistin'Ghost Give up the ghost Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: U$A Age: 33 Posts: 4,662	Apple ][ and ][ GS For you usenet freaks, alt.binaries.emulators.misc is hosting a flood of Apple II (TOSEC) images which is quite massive. The most unique part of the flood is the collection of 255 games (or disks, rather) for the II GS, which was their American equivalent to the Amiga 500 and Atari ST. I really haven't messed much with emulation of this machine, but you'll find a lot of the same games as the Amiga and ST from the same era, so that's always fun. And it really wasn't a terrible box. I may have to dig up the latest emulator and see what the haps is. It would be interesting to see how much of that machine's sound is emulated, as it was pretty advanced for its time, as I recall.

23 August 2001, 22:43	#4
Twistin'Ghost Give up the ghost Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: U$A Age: 33 Posts: 4,662	OK, here's what I dug up on this machine: CPU: Western Design Center 65SC816 Speed: 2.8 Mhz FPU: none Motherboard RAM: 256 k Maximum RAM: 8 MB Number of sockets: n/a ROM: 128 k - 1 MB Data path: 16 bit Bus speed: 2.8 Mhz Slots: 7 proprietary (compatible w/Apple II) SCSI: available via expansion card Serial Ports: 2 ADB: 1 Floppy: 5.25" Disk ][ or 3.5" Sony 800k, via floppy port HD: supported Display: 2 bit color at 640x200, 8 bit color at 320x200 IIe enhanced: 80 column Sound Output: built in speaker Power: Introduced: January 1986 Terminated: mid-1993 Announced in September 1986 Removed picture Last edited by Ian; 14 October 2001 at 23:15.

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23 August 2001, 22:11	#2
Amiga1992 Registered User Join Date: May 2001 Location: ? Posts: 19,658	The IIGS is an EXCELLENT machine. My cousin had one of the Woz edition, and it was brilliant. It pooped all over PCs... I loved that machine. Try Out of This world. If the emulator has extra soundcard emulation, it will be brilliant. Most atmospheric version I played thanks to its sound. I do remember my cousin's machine had great sound only because it had that extra card. By teh way, the IIGS is an 8bit machine. neat eh?

23 August 2001, 22:38	#3
Twistin'Ghost Give up the ghost Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: U$A Age: 33 Posts: 4,662	8-bit? I don't think so. I am almost certain it was 16-bit.

23 August 2001, 22:47	#5
Twistin'Ghost Give up the ghost Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: U$A Age: 33 Posts: 4,662	OK, you will have to excuse (or ignore) the long text description below (from Byte Magazine), which explains how Akira is not completely wrong, as the IIGS retained compatibility with the previous 8-bit Apple II systems: Here are the most important features of the Apple lI GS: Apple II compatibility: The Apple II GS will run most Apple II software and expansion cards. It can run at normal Apple II speed or at a higher rate that makes most software run two to three times faster. [ Edit or's note: In this article, "Apple II" refers to the traditional Apple II computer as defined by the Apple II, II+, lIe, and IIc. ] The Apple II GS composite video signal has been corrected so that it will be recorded correctly by a videotape recorder. Apple lie owners can upgrade to complete II GS compatibility by replacing the motherboard and back/bottom plate with a II GS retrofit kit. A 16-bit, 6502-compatible processor: With a 16-bit address bus and 8 "bank address" lines, the Western Design Center's W65C816 can address 256 banks of 64K bytes each, for a total of 16 megabytes. It can also go into a 6502 mode, where it emulates the 65C02A used in the Apple lIe and IIc. The processor's accumulator, stack pointer, and all its registers are 16 bits wide, and its instruction set includes 11 new addressing modes. Greatly expanded memory capacity: The machine's architecture reserves space for 8 megabytes of user RAM and 1 megabyte of system ROM. It comes with 256K bytes of RAM, 128K bytes of system ROM, and 64K bytes of dedicated sound-wave-form memory, but you will have to wait for new programs to use most of the memory above the first 128K bytes. Apple currently has plans for 1- and 4-megabyte expansion cards, although an 8-megabyte card is possible. New graphics capabilities: The Apple II GS adds two "super hi-res" graphics modes: 200 by 320 pixels with a 16-color palette and 200 by 640 pixels with a 4-color palette: the colors come from a color set of 4096. The machine can use up to 16 palettes per screen and change palettes and resolution on a line-by-line basis. Programmers can use two experimental modes: a 640- by 200-pixel, 16-color (with restrictions) palette mode, and a high-speed "fill mode" variation of the 200 by 320, 16-color mode. New sound capabilities: The 32-voice Ensoniq Digital Oscillator Chip (DOC), used in the Ensoniq Mirage sampled-sound music synthesizer, and system firmware can drive the chip to prod uce up to 15 musical "instruments." Mouse, keyboard, and disks: A one-button mouse and a detachable keyboard with keypad are standard equipment. The Apple II GS does not have an internal disk drive, but you can daisy-chain up to two 800K-byte 3-1/2-inch drives and two 140K-byte 5-1/4-inch drives to the disk drive port on the rear panel. The system software will come on 3-1/2-inch disks, which silently but forcefully indicates Apple's intent to phase out the 5-1/4-inch floppy disk. The Toolbox: Application programs can use built-in code (some in ROM, some in RAM) to provide a mouse-driven desktop environment and orderly use of system resources. The Finder: Finder software, supplied with the basic system, allows users to interact with disks and files using windows, icons, and a mousedriven cursor (as popularized by the Apple Macintosh). Desk accessories: The Apple II GS makes available Macintosh-like desk accessories; some a re available from all programs, and others work only with programs specifically designed for the Apple II GS. The Control Panel, accessible from any program, allows the user to change the date, slot assignments, operating speed, and similar parameters. New languages and tools: For the software developer, Apple will offer a 6502/65C02/65816 assembler and versions of C and Pascal; the three languages share a standard editor and linker and allow object code modules from any source to be used together. For the hobbyist, Apple has extended the Apple IIe monitor to work in the Apple II GS 16-bit environment and has added new functions to it. No enhanced, built-in language: Like the Macintosh (and unlike most other computers), the Apple II GS contains no built-in language (such as Microsoft BASIC) that interacts with the machine's new features. Applesoft BASIC is available in system ROM, but it has no way of directly interacting with the new Apple II GS features. A new 16-bit operating system: ProDOS 16 extends Apple's ProDOS (which runs on the Apple II+, IIe, and IIc) to be the standard Apple II GS operating system; it runs on the 65816 in native 16-bit mode, is functionally similar to the 8-bit ProDOS, and shares an identical file structure with ProDOS. Apple has also made slight modifications to the 6502-based ProDOS so that it will run on the Apple II GS's Apple II emulation mode; this operating system is named ProDOS 8.

23 August 2001, 23:09	#6
Amigaboy Posts: n/a	I've used these machines, and I wasn't a big fan. It was most likely because I was biased. When these came out, I was still using the C64/128 btw - There's an A500 in the background of that pic

24 August 2001, 17:46	#8
Twistin'Ghost Give up the ghost Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: U$A Age: 33 Posts: 4,662	The IIGS people were in pretty low numbers. On my BBS, I think there were only 2 users of that machine, and we really gave them a hard time for that! Mind you, Atari ST-bashing was far more fun, even if the IIGS people were very bit as adament that their machine was better than the Amiga. And yeah, the previous Apple II models were far more popular. No idea why the machine was so unsuccessful...probably because they ignored the rest of the world? Regardless, they had as much shelf space here at the local Software Etc. as did the Amiga. Note, the ST had no shelf space.

24 August 2001, 18:09	#9
Amiga1992 Registered User Join Date: May 2001 Location: ? Posts: 19,658	Oh, it uses THAT processor. I thought it sticked completely with a stock 6502, accelerated like hell. I remember playing both IIGS and II games... when you booted up if you pressed a key you entered Apple II basic, or if the disk in the drive was for the Apple II, it automatically booted on II mode... A very versatile cpu if you ask me, its not-economic version is used at the SuperCPU C64 accelerator, but it runs at 20Mhz The Apple IIGS games were terrific, as I said, Out of This World was INCREDIBLE with the Ensoniq soundcard. It is the most atmospheric version I played. I ws terribly disapointed when I played the Amiga version and it had no ingame, cinematic music. I wonder for how long software was produced after its death. We bought OOTW in early 1993. I dunno why this machine wasn't popular, the Apple II was mainly popular because it was used a LOT at schools. My stupid cousin gave away this machine to some twat. I wanted it!

04 October 2004, 23:53	#10
thinlega .:Part-Time Winner:. Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: UK Posts: 531	man...I would love a appleII GS for the sound applications alone (transwave synth anyone!)...but i think the are quite rare in the uk

05 October 2004, 00:03	#11
fisken uno Zone Friend Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Sweden Age: 44 Posts: 716	I love the IIGS mainly for the ports of Sierra's AGI games. The IIGS versions were the only ones that did actually have sound fx (woooooooooooow!!) and the music used a few instruments too. I always wondered why they didn't use it for the Amiga versions (since the amiga was indeed capable of it). But I think the IIGS versions were made after the Amiga versions, and thus uses a better version of AGI.

05 October 2004, 01:23	#12
Chuckles The Ancient One Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Kansas City/USA Age: 69 Posts: 685	My first home computer was an Apple II+, and I was a real Apple fan for years. The Apple II had some areas where it was better than the C64, and some where it wasn't as good. When the IIGS came out, I really wanted one, but before I could ever convince myself to spend that much money, I popped into a store selling A500's just after they came out, and knew as soon as I had checked them out that the Amiga was the better machine, so I bought one that day. I picked up a IIGS from eBay about a year ago and it's a nice little machine, but its no Amiga. One somewhat interesting thing about it that I think I'd heard before but had forgotten had to do with its construction though. The entire machine can be completely disassembled and reassembled with no tools whatsoever, which made the assembly process very simple. There are no screws anywhere, and everything is done with interlocking tabs and such. I replaced the ROM01 motherboard in mine with a ROM03 motherboard to bring it up to the latest version, and that required taking the whole thing apart and putting it together again, but it was a piece of cake to do.

05 October 2004, 06:01	#15
Amiga1992 Registered User Join Date: May 2001 Location: ? Posts: 19,658	I wonder WHAT is this doing in prb.WinUAE... Thread moved to Retrogaming General Discussion!

05 October 2004, 07:00	#16
Chuckles The Ancient One Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Kansas City/USA Age: 69 Posts: 685	I don't know why it was there, but I'm guessing that it must have been there for the past 3 years or so, based on the date of the first post. I didn't realize the thread wasn't a recent one till now.

05 October 2004, 20:58	#18
Fred the Fop flaming faggot Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Versailles Age: 56 Posts: 2,808	You guys must also rememebr that the Apple ][ GS was the machine used to create the great Icom games, Shadowgate, Deja Vu and Uninvited!

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