AmiQuake new 68k Quake Port for AGA/RTG

[stevelord]

Originally Posted by BomberMillz

However, I would say at this stage, an 060 is becoming more 'niche' than an 080/AMMX powered machine.

Do you have any actual data to back that up because I've never seen a statement like that before.

[BomberMillz]

Originally Posted by stevelord

Do you have any actual data to back that up because I've never seen a statement like that before.

Ok, lets look at this logically...


How many working/non fake 060s PLUS Amiga based acellerator boards are there left in the wild and how many more will be made? Maybe the boards will keep flowing but the CPUs?


Ditto with 080/AMMX based cards/machines.


Now I dont have any numbers for either side, (I have heard several thousand now for Vampire boards) but the numbers on the 060 side are at a dead standstill (unless someone comes up with an FPGA copy) so sooner or later, there will be (or already is???) more Vampire machines around.


In your defence however, ironically, the Vampire boards also support all the other 68xxx revisions, so technically, it IS also an FPGA 060. But why stop at supporting the 060 which has low basic 68000 compatability, compared to the 080 CPU which does them all (and MUCH faster I might add).

[chucsmom69]

Originally Posted by BomberMillz

Ok, lets look at this logically...


How many working/non fake 060s PLUS Amiga based acellerator boards are there left in the wild and how many more will be made? Maybe the boards will keep flowing but the CPUs?


Ditto with 080/AMMX based cards/machines.


Now I dont have any numbers for either side, (I have heard several thousand now for Vampire boards) but the numbers on the 060 side are at a dead standstill (unless someone comes up with an FPGA copy) so sooner or later, there will be (or already is???) more Vampire machines around.


In your defence however, ironically, the Vampire boards also support all the other 68xxx revisions, so technically, it IS also an FPGA 060. But why stop at supporting the 060 which has low basic 68000 compatability, compared to the 080 CPU which does them all (and MUCH faster I might add).

Yes this exactly the point I was trying to make.

[stevelord]

Originally Posted by BomberMillz

Now I dont have any numbers for either side, (I have heard several thousand now for Vampire boards) but the numbers on the 060 side are at a dead standstill (unless someone comes up with an FPGA copy) so sooner or later, there will be (or already is???) more Vampire machines around.

It's good that you acknowledged you don't have numbers. Getting numbers is hard, but we might be able to find some indicator of roughly how many were made/sold.

As well as on the Amiga, the 68060 was also used in accelerator cards for Macs, Ataris and the Sinclair QL. The 68060 was also used in PBXes, Routers from Motorola, Cisco, Nortel etc. It also had a second life in embedded systems from media to flight avionics. There were many 68060 variants made, so I think we can assume that it was sold in some volume. This InfoWorld article points out a 1994 price of $263 in "quantities of 10,000" for a 50mhz chip. Given there were 6 main revisions and several variants of each (EC, LC etc) I think it's not unreasonable to suggest enough of these 10,000 volume orders were made to ensure the continuation of the line.

This page lists suppliers with stock of 68060s now. I wouldn't have faith in the numbers being up to date, but assuming they were correct at some point that would suggest production numbers in the high hundreds of thousands to millions. Given the 68060's extensive 90s/2000s use in routers and embedded systems, that wouldn't be unusual. The 68060 was a mass-produced mainstream chip series. While the FPGA used by the Vampire is/was part of a mass-produced mainstream chip series, the Vampire has no deployment outside of the Amiga niche.

[BomberMillz]

Originally Posted by stevelord

It's good that you acknowledged you don't have numbers. Getting numbers is hard, but we might be able to find some indicator of roughly how many were made/sold.

As well as on the Amiga, the 68060 was also used in accelerator cards for Macs, Ataris and the Sinclair QL. The 68060 was also used in PBXes, Routers from Motorola, Cisco, Nortel etc. It also had a second life in embedded systems from media to flight avionics. There were many 68060 variants made, so I think we can assume that it was sold in some volume. This InfoWorld article points out a 1994 price of $263 in "quantities of 10,000" for a 50mhz chip. Given there were 6 main revisions and several variants of each (EC, LC etc) I think it's not unreasonable to suggest enough of these 10,000 volume orders were made to ensure the continuation of the line.

This page lists suppliers with stock of 68060s now. I wouldn't have faith in the numbers being up to date, but assuming they were correct at some point that would suggest production numbers in the high hundreds of thousands to millions. Given the 68060's extensive 90s/2000s use in routers and embedded systems, that wouldn't be unusual. The 68060 was a mass-produced mainstream chip series. While the FPGA used by the Vampire is/was part of a mass-produced mainstream chip series, the Vampire has no deployment outside of the Amiga niche.

Ok, lets go from your points mentioned...


Its irrelevant how many 'were' made. The C64 was the best selling computer of all time. It doesnt mean the (C64 sound) SID chips are cheap to buy anymore, considering many machines wore out, got damaged or were just downright thrown away. However many there were originally, have now wittled right down. Im thinking this is a similar analogy for the 060. I mean, did all those CPUs from telephone exchanges/washing machines/whatever get carefully pulled out and saved for a rainy day?


As for the suppliers page. Ok, let me see... theres several suppliers with one to five ICs at astronomical prices. Theres ones that say they have several hundred in stock, but no price and you have to enquire. Sounds like they are chip flippers taking a chance. Dont believe me? Then why do so many people struggle, playing Russian roulette with dodgy Chinese 060 suppliers if these guys have them? I'd say its all smoke and mirrors here. Would love to be wrong, but even if I am wrong, the stupid prices are there, so that leads to the final nail in the coffin: Why would anyone pay more for a 060 Chip, (even if its a low cost board with it) when they can have a better complete 080 system card (V2) with selectable 68000-80 command set, enhanced but fully back-compatible OCS with FREE RTG?


Im not being paid by Gunnar to say this, or anything, its just, well, do the math. Although not open sourced, the Apollo team have put a great deal of effort into the Vampire system, so I can understand why they wouldnt. Its not just a plug in board with a bit of fast ram thrown in. They have developed their own OS branch, so as not to have to deal with any AmigaOS legal issues; developed full seamless driver support; developed a streaming instruction processor; developed a 060 sucessor with much better speed and compatability.



To be honest, I cant see what the argument is, unless its from a disgruntled 060 owner, having paid £1000 or whatever for a 20 year old CPU card being a bit p**sed.

[stevelord]

Originally Posted by BomberMillz

Its irrelevant how many 'were' made.

That's a rather odd statement to make, given that the entire point I questioned was this:

Originally Posted by BomberMillz;

However, I would say at this stage, an 060 is becoming more 'niche' than an 080/AMMX powered machine

The number of CPUs produced would be a major factor in the number available. I demonstrated that 060s are available to buy in quantity. This is unsurprising given that the 68060 CPU range was mass-produced over a decade while the Vampire series are small-run niche boards.

Originally Posted by BomberMillz;

As for the suppliers page. Ok, let me see... theres several suppliers with one to five ICs at astronomical prices. Theres ones that say they have several hundred in stock, but no price and you have to enquire. Sounds like they are chip flippers taking a chance. Dont believe me?

No, I don't believe you. On that list is Rochester Electronics. They're the world's largest supplier of EOL chips. To call them "chip flippers taking a chance" is certainly a nuclear take. There's a 2020 EAB thread about them remanufacturing 060s. That route is expensive because of R&D, QA and certification costs. It's built for industrial use.

Originally Posted by BomberMillz;

Then why do so many people struggle, playing Russian roulette with dodgy Chinese 060 suppliers if these guys have them?

I can't speak for other people but IME getting an 060 isn't hard (I have 3). The only version that's expensive is the full Rev 6 060 74E41J because they're very overclockable and are hoarded. I still found 2 from a reputable supplier in about 5 minutes of looking. Older 060s are neither rare nor expensive and are often available if you take the time to look for sources. Rev 4 LCs are often available around 100 Euro, even AmigaStore is taking orders for them in the TF1260.

Originally Posted by BomberMillz;

To be honest, I cant see what the argument is, unless its from a disgruntled 060 owner, having paid £1000 or whatever for a 20 year old CPU card being a bit p**sed.

You're seeing an argument where there is none. All that happened was you made a baseless claim about a widely deployed CPU series becoming niche and I asked you for data to back it up. Turns out you have none and made it all up. Instead of caring about the truth, or under what conditions it might become true you've chosen to argue a position in opposition to available information. The **only** point I'm picking you up on is the comment about the 060 becoming niche compared to the Vampire. I'm uninterested in any other topic you've raised here.

You're welcome to your opinion, just don't confuse it for fact. That fact being that the 060 was widely produced and is still available from hobbyist and industrial sources, while the Vampire is by comparison a small-run board that serves it's niche well. Nothing wrong with that.

[BomberMillz]

Ok, look, I didnt want to usurp NovaCoders thread (sorry NC).

TLDR: Niche does not necessarily imply cost/availability.

And yes, I will admit, I was jumping the gun by presuming people would want the best 060 if they are going to bother getting a CPU with a small userbase of Amiga code (niche?) otherwise why bother? As it is, with the fastest ones, they are what?.. 5x slower than the Vampire cards (but nowhere near 5x as cheap, disregarding completely all the 'extras' you get on the V card).

So, ok, lets for arguments sake say you can get a super fast 060 for £50, then remember to factor in the card and any RAM. How much did you save? (Cost in total maybe £200-300?).

Now, how many games/demos can the card natively run compared to the 68000? Yeah, a fair few, (remember you have to factor in cost for RTG if you include those games too) but not a drop in the ocean compared to 99% of all games/apps. And thats at a far greater speed. That is based on a £350 V500V2+ card compared to a 060 card at £2-300.

Theres more than one angle to an architecture being niche, its not just the cost side.

However, Im not someone who just has to win an argument, I fully concede that the Vampire dropped the ball a bit when it comes to FPU precision. That really is its Achilles heel, if it has one. But for the initial niche topic...hell, I code on a 030 and think thats niche enough!

Anyway, if I havent convinced you by now, I probably never will. I will conclude that we beg to differ, shake your hand in a sportsmanly fashion and be on my way!

I will not ruin this thread any further. Again, apologies to NovaCoder.

[Aardvark]

Ran Timedemo comparisons between AmiQuake and Clickboom on TF1260 100mhz+Radeon [ Show youtube player ]
Clickboom RTG modes seems to be faster on my machine.

AmiQuake RTG 320x200 17.1
Clickboom RTG 320x200 18.41
AmiQuake NTSC 320x200 16.7
Clickboom NTSC 320x200 16.54

[NovaCoder]

That's some impressive results, thanks for posting

[astuermer]

Originally Posted by NovaCoder

I've built a special 060 version for the TF1260 that doesn't need an FPU.

Any idea where to find this special build?

Thanks

nvm... found it
https://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p...&postcount=287

[fitzsteve]

Originally Posted by astuermer

Any idea where to find this special build?

Thanks

nvm... found it
https://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p...&postcount=287

don't get too excited it's a slideshow :P

[klx300r]

Originally Posted by fitzsteve

don't get too excited it's a slideshow :P

no FPU to take the heavy loads what do you expect There's a reason why the best 060 demos require an FPU to run

[grelbfarlk]

Originally Posted by klx300r

no FPU to take the heavy loads what do you expect There's a reason why the best 060 demos require an FPU to run

No see like was mentioned on the last page the FPU doesn't actually do anything. It's just like a digital token to extract money from you to allow you to run more applications in some horrible cross licensing deal from the 1990's (CE).

[TCD]

Would be interesting to see a comparison of FPU/no FPU in a video.

[BSzili]

Originally Posted by grelbfarlk

No see like was mentioned on the last page the FPU doesn't actually do anything. It's just like a digital token to extract money from you to allow you to run more applications in some horrible cross licensing deal from the 1990's (CE).

Some people unironically think this

[Michael]

Modern FPGA solutions are nice and give good performance, but sadly can not replace real hardware just yet. They do not offer full functionality, sometimes have incompatibilities and even when they do make full emulation possible it will be slower then the real thing for quite some time. Just look at UAE and how the fastest PCs of today struggle to get close to full 060 performance when MMU is enabled. And a lot of developer software requires it. And it helps stabilize your system. Find faulty software and even then some modern devs ignore problems in their software, since it works for them as is. A big pity.

Also nothing stops you from using 060 software on FPGA, but you can't do the opposite, and you have a larger user base of real hardware and uae users.

[alenppc]

Originally Posted by fitzsteve

don't get too excited it's a slideshow :P

Actually it's almost fully playable at 100 MHz on the LC060.

[trixster]

Matze’s new BFG9060 accelerator at 100Mhz returns a timedemo score of 18.2fps with AmiQuake AGA (not RTG), which is the fastest I’ve seen on a 68k. This is due to super quick fast and chip ram access speeds

/edit ran test a few times again, now sits at 18.2fps

[NovaCoder]

Originally Posted by trixster

Matze’s new BFG9060 accelerator at 100Mhz returns a timedemo score of 18.0fps, which is the fastest I’ve seen on a 68k. This is due to super quick fast and chip ram access speeds

That's very cool, has anyone done a video yet?

[TCD]

Originally Posted by trixster

Matze’s new BFG9060 accelerator at 100Mhz returns a timedemo score of 18.0fps, which is the fastest I’ve seen on a 68k. This is due to super quick fast and chip ram access speeds

Which resolution is that?