Are we stuck with Protracker's format forever?

[no9]

This is continuation from the post in ProTracker 2.3F thread to not distract developers thread from it's main purpose.

Well, @Akira, my main point of disagreement was the statement that developing a new tracker on Amiga obliges one to stick to mod format. As you see I dare to diagree, that's why I brought some examples there.

Originally Posted by Akira

As long as new software, games, the demoscene, keep using Protracker as a format, you cannot just shoo it away. this is why Protracker compatibility is paramount for a Protracker sequencer.

All that usage have single reason behind - there is nothing better at the moment for such purposes. And this moment is as long as quarter of century.
I can't deny that Protracker ought to be compatible with Protracker, but since there was mentioned starting anything from a scratch so it doesn't need to be Protracker, right? Just a tracker. Or not?

New tracker software to make music just for the sake of making music? Sure, that could be a lot of fun, but then again, need someone passionate enough, and also, who can answer a very big "why bother?" question.

This argument is enormously strong so it can encompass almost every activity in the world of old computers - why bother at all with that retro demos, games etc? It goes to the point of becoming useless itself.

We can as why TBL guys making EON demo bothered and resorted to smart tricks pushing soundtrack in their demo to the next level, while still on plain old Amiga 500? Because apparently Protracker was not enough.

So there is definitely need and space for something better than good old, 31 samples and single command column Protracker. And there are plenty of ideas scattered around in tracker and non-tracker music on Amiga that could enrich sample-based music made with Protracker. I mean something that have it's roots in Protracker but expands on it.

Better 4 channel tracker and tracker format/routines can have it's impact on Amiga demoscene and game development scene music, letting it sound richer while being more efficient on resources (ok, this theorising transforms into phase od dreaming, I know but you provoked this ).

Because the biggest thing about Protracker modules is that you can use them in things like games and stuff,

I assume new tracker is comming with its own replaying routines that can let people do that the same/similar way as Protracker ones does.

But I am digressing. The point is, an up-to-date 100% Protracker-compatible tracker like bubsy's 2.3F and pt2clone is very much still wanted and needed for a myriad of reasons, but that doesn't stop anyone from doing something else anew (and like, stop posting about it in a forum and go make it, if you're so inclined and talented )

I don't deny that bugfixed and somewhat improved version of Protracker 2.x line has it's appeal and utility value. But let's not leave an impression that Protracker in it's form we know for 30 years contains all features that Amiga is able to bear.

New software doesn't pop up itsef from the void. One thing is talented programmer(s) who can take the effort of creating such thing. But on the other side there need to be some interest from Amiga musicians community in having any progress here. If there is not a slightest demand for that so why anyone would bother in even considering this?

That's why I see writing this publicly on forum as a valid, while not going to create it by myself. For reasons.

[Galahad/FLT]

Protracker does what most people need, it plays music in an expected way on all Amigas.

You have a problem though.

1). Diminished audience

There is precious few people in comparison to the Amigas height in the late 80's early 90's that regularly compose music. Sure, there is still quite a lot of musicians, but nowhere near the levels that once were.

Protracker is familiar for most musicians, they know its limitations and its strengths, and more importantly, they know how to get the best out of it, and better yet, whether your demo production uses 68000 or 68060, Protracker modules work.

2). Technical specs

Like it or not, the preferred demo machine of choice is a 68000 based A500 with 512K chip and 512k other memory.

Protracker plays nicely, DigiBooster Pro? Not so much.

And when your demo coder needs to pull the very last bit of cpu cycles and DMA out of the Amiga, he can't afford a playroutine that is 8 channel and eats away at those cycles that they need.

People are still more impressed by an OCS/ECS Amiga doing modern effects, than they will be by an AGA Amiga, rightly or wrongly, that is where the focus is directed, and whatever music is composed has to run correctly on that format.

Protracker could no doubt be improved, and i'm sure musicians have ideas to add, but that dilutes the format even more.

Create your own tracker that doesn't conform to Protracker standards and improve on it, you just need to hope that the diminished musician audience for it wants to relearn a new Amiga program, with new commands, and new ways of doing things.

Protracker might not be a pair of Nike trainers/sneakers, its a comfortable pair of shoes.

[saimon69]

Going with what is already available, a decent alternative might be use the xm format with 8 bit samples and four channels tunes only (or eight with some channel switching); file format specs are out there, milkytracker uses it natively, has separate volume control, it has more sample slots and some interesting audio tuning features rarely used.

BUT, i wonder,are there paula-friendly four channel xm replayroutines out there?

[no9]

@Galahad/FLT

1) I'm aware that targed audience on Amiga is very limited today. And creating a new tracker with lot's of features is probably order of magnitude bigger effort than making decent demo which pushes it even further into improbability realm.

But I don't agree with 2) point of yours. I brought some ideas here that not necesarily have to be cpu demanding. http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=...&postcount=189 . I also consider A500 as a main target (while not exluding 68k+AGA) and I think demos there can shine if they follow C64 path - colorful, well designed, with less CPU demanding effects from time to time. More flexible, expanded "Protracker" could contribute with something fresh here.

Create your own tracker that doesn't conform to Protracker standards and improve on it, you just need to hope that the diminished musician audience for it wants to relearn a new Amiga program, with new commands, and new ways of doing things.

That's very probable. But it can also go the other way around - new possibilities can draw some attention and if you like to compete then new features offers you an advantage.

[lesta_smsc]

XM reminds me of MOD. I recall playing some files back in 1997 on my 1st PC and reminiscing the sound of Amiga.

@Galahad/FLT - very valid arguments. I'd even go as far to say the benchmark was protracker. It just works. Nothing spectacular but got the job done nicely most of the time.

Creativity lies in what can be achieved with what you have rather than what you could have had.

I know this isn't related directly, but I was playing Lionheart the yesterday. The game is a perfect example demonstrating how good coding, graphical artists and musicians could come together to make an amazing game that could worked on essentially basic a Amiga (non AGA).

[Samurai_Crow]

Abyss' Tiny series games maintained a small disk footprint and load-time by using Pretracker in place of Protracker. Pretracker renders its synthetics at load-time using subtractive synthesis and premixed chord waveforms. Protracker uses samples for every instrument and suffers because of it. I just wish the Pretracker editor didn't require a Windows cross development environment.

[no9]

Originally Posted by saimon69

Going with what is already available, a decent alternative might be use the xm format with 8 bit samples and four channels tunes only (or eight with some channel switching); file format specs are out there, milkytracker uses it natively, has separate volume control, it has more sample slots and some interesting audio tuning features rarely used.

BUT, i wonder,are there paula-friendly four channel xm replayroutines out there?

You can check Perfect Circle by The Black Lotus which features 8 channel XM. But honestly I find it very limiting on Amiga.

Wasn't this be nice if we have dynamic channels configuration, for example to let you use 3 hardware channels directly, but 4 channel used for software mixed channels if needed? Even if that would be Octalyzer quality or less? Or in any other configuration.

Originally Posted by Samurai_Crow

Abyss' Tiny series games maintained a small disk footprint and load-time by using Pretracker in place of Protracker. Pretracker renders its synthetics at load-time using subtractive synthesis and premixed chord waveforms. Protracker uses samples for every instrument and suffers because of it. I just wish the Pretracker editor didn't require a Windows cross development environment.

And I would love to see a tracker that marries both approaches, samples, pre-rendered sounds, other sample modulation techniques. Remember that horrible EFx command? This was good direction but implemented very badly.

Originally Posted by lesta_smsc

Creativity lies in what can be achieved with what you have rather than what you could have had.

Yeah, but Amiga is already very limited platform so no worries in killing anyones creativity. Otherwise we would limit ourselves to jumping pixel on black screen with some beeping sound.

[saimon69]

Wasn't this be nice if we have dynamic channels configuration, for example to let you use 3 hardware channels directly, but 4 channel used for software mixed channels if needed? Even if that would be Octalyzer quality or less? Or in any other configuration.

You just described Hippel 7 channel TFMX playroutine used in Turrican and other Factor 5 games

I was proposing xm because am aware of the lack of manpower and was looking for quick-and-dirty solutions; plus have this idea on switchable audio tracks for interactive soundtracks since there are several ways to make a soundtrack interactive: pattern switching, sample volume and track switching but, last time i asked, got told that protracker replayroutines are not THAT elastic.

And me NOT being h0ffmann mean i cannot code my own routines to save my own life, hence need to rely on external coders.

[Tigerskunk]

I don't have a problem with the format, but god, I hate tracker apps.

Wish somebody would code something that looks like early Fruity Loops that exports PT format, for instance.

[skan]

Originally Posted by Steril707

I don't have a problem with the format, but god, I hate tracker apps.

Wish somebody would code something that looks like early Fruity Loops that exports PT format, for instance.

Good point indeed! Like it or not, the format itself is a gold standard on Amiga and pretty good after all. But a modern take on the UI /UX would be interesting at least.

[chip]

It's not a good think that most of the music on Amiga is Protracker ?

I mean, we can consider it a standard, at the contrary of the various exotic formats

[sparhawk]

What would be the point of a new format? Just to have something new?
If you have a problem with the MOD format, because you need some feature that can't be done with MOD, then fine. You can implement your own enhanced format, but then you have the problem that it will take a long time until it spreads and gets supported, unless this is really a killer feature which totally improves what you can do, so that people will be keen to use it.

[no9]

Originally Posted by saimon69

You just described Hippel 7 channel TFMX playroutine used in Turrican and other Factor 5 games

More or less yes. And this is what actually makes it more sad, because as I said, those ideas are scattered here and there but didn't make to Protracker or any other tracker that would unify all or some of them.

And besides things that really demands more CPU cycles, some that go the other way around. For example volume envelopes (already present in XM format). Woudn't this save some memory if composer is not forced to fill patterns with Axx or EAx EBx commands? Just to put a command after note C-3 that asks 'Protracker, trigger volume envelope number 2 for that sample, please'. Or 'move that loop points to the right a little', like in this [ Show youtube player ]

Originally Posted by Steril707

I don't have a problem with the format, but god, I hate tracker apps.

Wish somebody would code something that looks like early Fruity Loops that exports PT format, for instance.

Yeah, that's another story and also reflects to some extent how much Protracker became a fossil. Personally I like Protracker, but at the same time it bothers me that people assume it has to be the final step of Amiga four channel, sample based trackers evolution.

Originally Posted by sparhawk

What would be the point of a new format? Just to have something new?

Many different motivations can exist at the same time. One of them could be to enrich sound of Amiga not just by counting bits resolution and not only how far we can jump beyond standard 8-bit samples. Some of my posts is an attempt to describe just that.

[Tomislav]

There are already other Amiga module formats: S3M, XM and IT. Also there is MED format which is different than MOD format.

[no9]

There is nothing Amiga specific in those first three formats you mention. What does MED format offer different than MOD, soundwise?

[Tigerskunk]

This thread is already gold for me, since I didn't know about Abyss Pretracker.
That's a really really nice tool. Wow.

[no9]

If it only let you load samples...

[Paulee_Bow]

Originally Posted by no9

This is continuation from the post in ProTracker 2.3F thread to not distract developers thread from it's main purpose.

Well, @Akira, my main point of disagreement was the statement that developing a new tracker on Amiga obliges one to stick to mod format. As you see I dare to diagree, that's why I brought some examples there.



All that usage have single reason behind - there is nothing better at the moment for such purposes. And this moment is as long as quarter of century.
I can't deny that Protracker ought to be compatible with Protracker, but since there was mentioned starting anything from a scratch so it doesn't need to be Protracker, right? Just a tracker. Or not?




This argument is enormously strong so it can encompass almost every activity in the world of old computers - why bother at all with that retro demos, games etc? It goes to the point of becoming useless itself.

We can as why TBL guys making EON demo bothered and resorted to smart tricks pushing soundtrack in their demo to the next level, while still on plain old Amiga 500? Because apparently Protracker was not enough.

So there is definitely need and space for something better than good old, 31 samples and single command column Protracker. And there are plenty of ideas scattered around in tracker and non-tracker music on Amiga that could enrich sample-based music made with Protracker. I mean something that have it's roots in Protracker but expands on it.

Better 4 channel tracker and tracker format/routines can have it's impact on Amiga demoscene and game development scene music, letting it sound richer while being more efficient on resources (ok, this theorising transforms into phase od dreaming, I know but you provoked this ).




I assume new tracker is comming with its own replaying routines that can let people do that the same/similar way as Protracker ones does.



I don't deny that bugfixed and somewhat improved version of Protracker 2.x line has it's appeal and utility value. But let's not leave an impression that Protracker in it's form we know for 30 years contains all features that Amiga is able to bear.

New software doesn't pop up itsef from the void. One thing is talented programmer(s) who can take the effort of creating such thing. But on the other side there need to be some interest from Amiga musicians community in having any progress here. If there is not a slightest demand for that so why anyone would bother in even considering this?

That's why I see writing this publicly on forum as a valid, while not going to create it by myself. For reasons.

I’d like the extra commands, for instance, to turn on and off the Amiga’s channel modulation (FM or AM) as it sounds really cool, and at the moment I need to run an assembler script:

[no9]

@xanderbeanz Yes, very nice and very Amiga-feature!

[h0ffman]

The bottom line is thats either its protracker or its not. The format has zero expandability at all. In fact its a legacy mess.

If you want new features it will require a new tracker with all of that in mind before you start development. In terms of features, you can only really do stuff which is directly associated to the hardware. You can do stuff for synth / sample generation but we're doing that with protracker already.


That then begs the question, what platform do you write the tracker for? Developing it for the amiga increases the complexity, reduces stability but most of all cuts out a large number of people who will use it. This became apparent when bubsys pt clone was released and a swath of musicians started making mods again so it really needs to be pc based.

Let's also not forget that your amiga based replay routine really needs to not suck!

Add all the up and you start to wonder if its really worth the effort when protracker already covers most of the bases.