new amiga 500 doom like !

[Gzegzolka]

There is something on my head so I need to ask You. Maybe it is a good time to stop tweaking engine with new features and start working on levels/game content. Or maybe that time was some time ago? If You have engine that works with decent speed on Amiga and Atari why not stick with it, work on story and levels. Finish it on Wolfenstein level of quality/engine, take a break and after some time make a sequel on Doom level of quality/engine features. I am bit afraid of Duke Nukem Forever syndrome when people can not stop implementing new features and keep polishing stuff that already looks okay. Anyway I still think what have You done is awesome.

[ImmortalA1000]

If the tools let you make your own complete game I would make....

1. A Ganster themed FPS with 1930s streets filled with 1930s cars and gangsters to hunt down/avoid.

2. A Western themed game with horses to avoid being trampled over and other cowboys in the town to avoid/kill with lots of buildings/stagecoaches to use as cover. A sort of reboot of Boot Hill called Reboot Hill

[Tsak]

Originally Posted by Gzegzolka

There is something on my head so I need to ask You. Maybe it is a good time to stop tweaking engine with new features and start working on levels/game content.

Well, this is exactly what I'm doing with GRIND currently

Originally Posted by Gzegzolka

If You have engine that works with decent speed on Amiga and Atari why not stick with it, work on story and levels. Finish it on Wolfenstein level of quality/engine, take a break and after some time make a sequel on Doom level of quality/engine features. I am bit afraid of Duke Nukem Forever syndrome when people can not stop implementing new features and keep polishing stuff that already looks okay. Anyway I still think what have You done is awesome.

It's not about blindly adding "features" like that. But adding what is necessary to actually allow us to finish the game (even a very barebones game that is). The engine at the moment is quite incomplete basically. You cannot go from level to level, you cannot have levels with different assets (like f.e. everything is loaded in memory all at once at the moment), there is no music (or at least some ambient sfx system to break the complete current in-game silence) and there are a dozen known bugs and glitches, while the game is also incompatible with most common Amiga accelerators (even fast ram is causing issues) e.t.c. e.t.c.

Personally I don't even care that much about variable heights and stairs to tell you the truth. In fact, if this runs late (KK does plan to finish the new wall renderer but it's completely unknown when), chances are I'm gonna complete GRIND with the current tech available. However the above stuff I mentioned (and much more) are still needed for a minimum viable and complete game. There's simply no other way around that.

[Promilus]

Tsak - oh, I didn't know it's that bad. I guess it's hyper optimized to bare 500 and 1200 which makes problems with other configurations. I guess in the end it would be difficult to maintain minimum requirements of nearly bare A500 should level transition, different assets per level and soundtrack be introduced.

[d4rk3lf]

Dread demo runs perfectly fine (and silky smooth) on my Aca500+ accelerator (14Mhz 68000, 7MB Fast, 1MB chip)

[nikosidis]

The development of the engine seams to take a lot of time. I was really hoping that variable heights would be part of the final game but as we can read from "Tsak" there seams to be to many issues.

[malko]

In the other hand, we have already seen games and a second opus with improved content. This may be a way to go as well : Dread/Grind 1 and some month later Dread/Grind 2.
Even Shadow of the Beast has three opus, so...

[nikosidis]

Originally Posted by malko

In the other hand, we have already seen games and a second opus with improved content. This may be a way to go as well : Dread/Grind 1 and some month later Dread/Grind 2.
Even Shadow of the Beast has three opus, so...

Sure, why not


To me the most important thing is that the game will be released and not abandoned.



There is a big chance than things will not happen if they are to complicated.



From what I seen, tried already things do not look to shabby

[d4rk3lf]

Originally Posted by nikosidis

The development of the engine seams to take a lot of time. I was really hoping that variable heights would be part of the final game but as we can read from "Tsak" there seams to be to many issues.

As far as I am concerned, KK achieved the goal.
We have great Demo.
We have great building tools so we create our own levels.
And everyone have access to it.

Everything else Tsak or KK release in the future will be just a plus for me.

Similar to Tsak, height implementation is not that important to me, although I admit is very important as the overall technical achievement.
But KK showed to Patreons first Doom level 1 in engine, and it looked great (for an A500)...

I only wish KK pots more often here.

[Tsak]

Originally Posted by Promilus

Tsak - oh, I didn't know it's that bad.

Well, it's not that bad
I mean most of these issues are just there because there's no attention gone to them so far (due to different priorities obviously). I'm pretty confident we'll be able patch and iron out everything as the project progresses.

Originally Posted by Promilus

I guess in the end it would be difficult to maintain minimum requirements of nearly bare A500 should level transition, different assets per level and soundtrack be introduced.

Exactly, at the moment we can only do that by quitting the game and loading/firing up a different binary basically. So we're limited (per binary) to assets that fit in a500's memory all at once, including the menus and UIs, in-game gfx, sounds and logic. Which should be good for a couple maps but definitely not for a whole game.

Originally Posted by d4rk3lf

Dread demo runs perfectly fine (and silky smooth) on my Aca500+ accelerator (14Mhz 68000, 7MB Fast, 1MB chip)

Oh, that's nice to know!
Yesterday we received a mail from someone that managed to run the first demo on the Amiga-mini btw.

[eXeler0]

@Tsak do you have a youtube channel where post GRIND updates?

[Tsak]

Originally Posted by eXeler0

@Tsak do you have a youtube channel where post GRIND updates?

I do but I don't post Grind updates there (at least not yet).
I've got a Patreon : https://www.patreon.com/Grind_Amiga which sees updates at least once every week.
Also a discord server, https://discord.gg/QXGQbkRCxN
All Patreon updates are announced there, together with some info, pics e.t.c.

[Bren McGuire]

it starting to smell like alarcity mate

Originally Posted by Gzegzolka

There is something on my head so I need to ask You. Maybe it is a good time to stop tweaking engine with new features and start working on levels/game content. Or maybe that time was some time ago?

[Predseda]

Originally Posted by Bren McGuire

it starting to smell like alarcity mate

I can assure you it is not that case.

[tomcat666]

Comon... release a new demo for the general public. It has been a LOOONG time since the first one. Would make a lot of people happy.

[trixster]

Indeed. I can’t afford to venture beyond the Patreon dread/now grind monthly paywall. I’ll definitely buy the game when it’s released though, so another public demo would be well received.

[Cris1997XX]

Pshh, guys...I think they tried to do a bait n switch scheme...

[utri007]

Making whole new game is big task, level designs, graphics and story.

What would have been cool would have been ported few Doom 1 levels to this maybe first episode?. Using available assets is much more faster.

Usually (in any project) problem is that plans changes middle of process and eventually everything is made many times, different ways and then people get bored and quits.

Is better to make a plan and stick with it and only make minor changes in process.

[Tsak]

Originally Posted by tomcat666

Comon... release a new demo for the general public. It has been a LOOONG time since the first one. Would make a lot of people happy.

Originally Posted by trixster

Indeed. I can’t afford to venture beyond the Patreon dread/now grind monthly paywall. I’ll definitely buy the game when it’s released though, so another public demo would be well received.

I understand and I'm honestly thinking about it. However it's not gonna happen until the short-term goals that are set so far are first met. I see that there is a lot of confusion and questions in regards to the development, planning and progress of this project, so it might be useful to give you a full account, so everyone gets on the same page.

Here's my progress so far and for the few months I've been working on this project solo (i.e. after Grind became its own thing):

• The game now has a solidified, original art style and clear direction in regards to its themes. As such, I've been methodically replacing every trace of asset that doesn't fit, while also adding new ones.
  
• I'm also replacing all old FreeDoom driven assets (whether they fit the theme or not) as the game needs 100% original ones.
  
• I've prepared a complete, brand new textures set (with it's own palette), consisting of roughly 200 pieces (including variants). Together with the old textures I made earlier for Dread (at least the originals and theme appropriate ones) I now have enough textures for nearly half the game.
  
• I've converted all remaining, needed assets to the new palette and secured that process (assets general cross-palette compatibility). This was an important missing step from the Dread days.
  
• All visuals on the main menu have been revamped to reflect the new game and direction.
  
• All collectable items are replaced and finalized. In the process a lot of other (candidate) items were created, which practically covers most item needs for the entire game.
  
• 'Decor' objects have been also converted and expanded.
  
• An initial cleanup and upgrade of current sfx has been made.
  
• A lot has become clearer in regards to the story and level progression of the game. A rough plan for levels is already set and I have an exact estimate of all the needed assets. To be more forthcoming, I plan for a minimum of at least 16 levels (which will make the game roughly as big as Alien Breed 3D f.e.).
  
• A lot has become clearer in regards to level design as well. The game is now more focused on environmental storytelling rather than random mazes (i.e. taking cues from Build-engine games like Blood) with an emphasis on heavy decoration and attention to detail.
  
• The above breakthroughs are cultivated in the new set of levels that I've also been working on. The latest Patreon-binary (code named "Innsmouth-east"), which was released just a few days ago, is planned to be one of the early levels in the game. The map connects to another level (which is -at the moment- half ready) and there is also a planned level before, which is in concept stages. Completing these 3 levels, will tie up nicely the very start of the game and any of them (or perhaps all 3 combined) is gonna be a nice candidate for a possible public demo release.
  
• A lot of work has gone into learning and taking control of the compiling process. This is probably one of the most difficult tasks so far (at least for me that I lack real coding skills). The game is extremely sensitive to changes and additions and there are a ton of roadblocks in the way (things breaking up, refusing to compile and other bugs manifesting in the way).
  
• Similarly I've been learning a lot in regards to the game's logic and the scrips that go with it. As a result I've been able to do a lot of gameplay related tweaks and additions (which are tested and implemented in the aforementioned maps).
  

The above snippets are from the released, latest map. Without going into extreme detail, here is the list of what is still missing (and what's coming next or is already in the works):

• HUD gfx replacement: this still uses the old FreeDoom design. A brand new steampunk themed HUD is already showcased and in early stages.
  
• Weapons gfx replacement: same story. New weapon sprites are also already in the making. With these 2 done the game will reach near 100% visual in-game completion (as you can clearly see above, the old HUD and weapon sprites are not exactly 'inline' with where I'm going with the art style).
  
• Besides updating the weapons gfx I also plan to expand gunplay a bit. I'd like to try adding secondary firing modes as a means to give the player a few more options than now (in light of lacking more weapon sprites to begin with, due to limited ram). This is gonna stick to basics, so don't expect any fancy stuff.
  
• Rework SFX: this department also needs further cleaning up, as many of the original sounds were either draft or adapted from FreeDoom. Weapons and enemies in particular will get a new hand of polishing. New environmental and enemy SFX missing are also to be added.
  
• Music: big priority on this one. A lot will depend on finding a solution to add music support in the engine (both for menus and in-game).
  
• Enemy roster: besides smoothing out loose ends with the visuals of the current roster, I'm currently in need of additional low-tier enemies (remember, current levels are supposed to be early ones). So that work gets priority. Besides that (and for the complete game) I've got 2 additional mid-tier enemy designs setup (one misses extra frames and anims and the other code) and from then on it's high-tier ones and the boss.
  
• Finish the 3 starting levels : this point is already covered and explained in the progress list above. Exactly half of the job is complete at the moment so there's another half remaining
  
• Important coding bits: includes level progression and load/save features, better assets storage & ram management, fixing incompatibilities with expanded systems, revisiting the collision detection code and -finally- general bugfixing.
  Note that while all these are beyond the scope of a demo release, are things that the final game would better have.

So that's practically the complete development plan for the game (both short and long term). With most of the above points done, the rest is work on extra content and maps.
Now in regards to a possible public demo release (to get back to the original question) I'd like to have -at least- the new HUD and weapon sprites prepared and ready before I even consider it. And (ideally) also music support, SFX and low-tier enemies done. Between releasing a half backed result and an actual vertical slice of the game (which comes with no extra asterisks or strings attached), I'd pretty much prefer the latter.

[Tigerskunk]

Originally Posted by Bren McGuire

it starting to smell like alarcity mate

Nobody paid any penny yet for a finished Grind game, so I don't see a similarity.

Anybody can take as much time as one needs for creating an Amiga game. It's all done in their free time.


And game dev takes a lot of time.