CRT Televisions are still being thrown out!

[Damion]

Originally Posted by dreadnought

Modern CRT scene has been completely dominated by the "audiophile" kind of perception, what with the PVM craze, thicc scanline and super-sharpness fetish, etc. That's just how it is and you can find the evidence of it on every dedicated website, youtube channel, and so on. And while preference for this kind of look is indeed subjective, the historical facts - plus common sense - aren't. And it's a fact that the signal inferiorities were commonly utilised as an artistic tool, and the general softer look was basically a free anti aliasing. This is the common sense bit: why would anybody want to design an image which is blocky and slashed by a lot of horizontal black lines? The consumer sets help to alleviate it, while the VGA and (to lesser extent) studio monitors excarberate it. Not in every case of course, but generally speaking.

There is a certain element of that "audiophile" angle in every hobby, but in ours it skews the thing completely out of proportion and leads to a lot of bad advice, usually requiring big investments, which in turn puts people off - hence my occasionals post on the subject. And as it is, you don't need to spend hudreds of dollars on studio monitors and the like, and can get quite amazing results on sets which are either free or cost next to nothing (and that's not even including the "nostalgia' angle"). Unfortunately that's not what the newcomers to the hobby are going to hear in most cases.

Agreed, I can understand annoyance directed toward the PVM/BVM and late-era consumer Trinitron chorus. I was a big fan of the Trinitron as a kid, so it's always held some nostalgia for me, along with the Mitsubishi Diamondtron which IMO is brilliant (my little 17" Iiyama is just a gem, beautiful picture via the MK3 Indivision). I luckily managed to find my PVMs new back when they were almost worthless (I had always wanted one but couldn't afford it), certainly not possible for any newcomer. One unfortunate effect is that the more common consumer sets will be increasingly rare to find in good cosmetic and working order, as they'll be long disposed of. Eventually, I imagine scoring one will be the new "fad"... on that note, time to stock up!

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

I think PVM's are a thing for frivolous reasons mostly, they are said to last longer, you get visible scanlines no matter the size (small consumer CRT TVs miss very visible scanlines) and some people don't have the patience to grab a good CRT TV through trial and error, e.q. they're being told get a Bang & Olufsen or bust, which is both silly and overkill. Having said that, after having spent 200-300 quids to get one plus the necessary cables and converters, I would bet my boots a few buyers were thoroughly disappointed with their PVM : Hair pulling complicated adjustment, potential screen burn in from previous use, and yeah, overall lack of charm compared to an old school telly / monitor.

Just to echo what UberFreak mentioned, the 600 TVL sets are a happy medium. They do lack comprehensive menu and internal controls for convergence and things like rotation (yoke tilt) so can be a slight pain to service, but worth the hassle. The 14" models tend to have fewer flaws (from what I've noticed, anyway).

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by Foebane

Rubbish.

The "alternatives" are NOT "poorer", and if the Amiga is to be seen as a current platform, rather than as a dated retro platform, it has to move with the times, including the display technology.

You're kidding, right? The Amiga is a 'current platform' in the same way that vinyl records are a 'current medium'. IOW it isn't, and never will be. But just like record players and tube amps are still sought after by those who prefer the analog format, so CRTs are still relevant for use with Amigas (and other computers of the time) that were designed to work with them.

Sure, CRTs have their downsides, but they have advantages for use with Amigas compared to typical modern displays. Most modern displays cannot handle native Amiga resolutions, so you need an upscaler. Cheap upscalers do a poor job - if they work all (I have wasted too much money trying to find one that was any good). A few modern monitors do work at 15kHz, but finding one is difficult and most have issues.

I recently bought a new Acer screen which was purported to work with the Amiga at 15kHz. Luckily mine did, but I sold it because it stretched the image and showed vertical lines every few pixels as it tried to scale them (an analog monitor will never do this). Another issue with many modern displays is that they blur the image at lower resolutions in an attempt to hide scaling effects (an analog monitor will never do this either). I hate that! If I wanted a blurry image I would just use a TV. Unless you are willing to pay hundreds of dollars for a specialized scaler, these are things you just have to put up with when using an Amiga (or older PC) on a modern display.

Most of the features of modern displays that make them desirable for modern systems are wasted on the Amiga. We don't need super high resolutions that require enormous fonts to make the text visible. We don't appreciate blurry interpolation to handle lower resolutions. We aren't impressed by widescreen displays that stretch the picture or waste half the area for our 4:3 geometry, and we hate the lag and tearing produced by running at the wrong vertical frequency. But what we hate most is that it wouldn't be hard to support PAL and NTSC scan rates on modern screens (TVs still do it fine - in composite).

You say the Amiga should move with the times. I say why should we be forced into the same mold and have to put up with its limitations? These are my times too, and I will do what I want to do with my Amigas - not what the 'modern' brigade has decided we should do.

[skan]

Originally Posted by Damion

Wrong, they indeed are in quantifiable ways. Good luck finding an LCD that offers perfect resolution scaling, lack of pixel smearing/ghosting, near 0 input lag/latency, and the black levels associated with a good CRT...

This. You summed it up pretty perfectly and spare me a long reply!

[Foebane]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

You're kidding, right? The Amiga is a 'current platform' in the same way that vinyl records are a 'current medium'. IOW it isn't, and never will be. But just like record players and tube amps are still sought after by those who prefer the analog format, so CRTs are still relevant for use with Amigas (and other computers of the time) that were designed to work with them.

If it's in use, it's current. That's my philosophy.

You say the Amiga should move with the times. I say why should we be forced into the same mold and have to put up with its limitations?

Last I checked, when vinyl records came back, their limitations weren't overcome, so why should the Amiga's? Besides, the Amiga's specs are what MAKE it an Amiga - upgrade them and we may as well call it something else entirely.

[haynor666]

I still use two CRTs - one for consoles/computers connected through scart if possible and other vertically oriented just for arcade games. Picture on Sony and Samsung are still generally nice but Samsung have medium problems with geometry. Both models are flat.

I'm not against LCDs at all but I think old lo-res games looks better on CRTs.

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by Foebane

Last I checked, when vinyl records came back, their limitations weren't overcome, so why should the Amiga's? Besides, the Amiga's specs are what MAKE it an Amiga - upgrade them and we may as well call it something else entirely.

You misunderstand - I was talking about the limitations of LCD monitors.

Retro computing is making a comeback, and users want screens that work properly with old computers. 'Modern' gamers spend ridiculous sums to get a screen with low lag etc., but nobody is making a screen optimized for the Amiga. Perhaps if they did they might discover an untapped market.

But I'm not holding my breath. You see, they want us to conform to their limitations.

You say the Amiga is a 'current platform' because people are using it, then say it should 'move with the times' to work with modern LCD monitors. I say that if that if the Amiga is current then they should conform to our needs, not the other way around.