You betray the Amiga by playing DOOM!

[LoadWB]

Originally Posted by NovaCoder

Don't forget that back in the day we were far more tolerant of low frame rates. My PC was slow when DOOM was released but I was still blown away and played it to death.

Indeed. Consider MicroSoft's (Sublogic's) Flight Simulator. I remember seeing 2.0 (because of the flashy POP display for the release) running as a demo at some retail store when I was but a wee sprout. If memory serves, I would say around 4fps on their mid-range IBM clone display system. A little more if there was not a lot of detail, and sometimes slower for a lot of detail at speed or a hard bank.

[Foebane]

Originally Posted by NovaCoder

Don't forget that back in the day we were far more tolerant of low frame rates. My PC was slow when DOOM was released but I was still blown away and played it to death.

What about me with my 486DX2/66 and Quake? It was a veritable SLIDESHOW!

[AndyC]

Well, here's a short video of me actively betraying the Amiga by running Doom on my Amiga A1200 with TerribleFire TF1260, running at 75MHz with Rev 6 CPU...

[ Show youtube player ]

:-)

[Valken]

I wanted to mention that when Doom initially came out, it was actually terrible for MOST of the platforms that existed then, even PC!

386, 486, 68K, Megadrive 32x, Super Famicom / SNES, etc... were all sub 15FPS slide shows!

Even the PC need a VGA card + SB audio card to get anything good out of it and those were not necessarily standard box builds.

Only the PSX and Jaguar, not Saturn version were relatively good but they slowed that down to a survival horror version with awesome game ambiance (my opinion) and cutout a lot of content. 3D0 Doom didn't even pull it off and had to use the same cut down console version, but it had a better music track.

GameBoy Advance Doom was alright actually after they scaled the game down significantly but that came out years later.

It was really 486-100 or Pentiums that made Doom FAST and smooth even then. I remember my first Pentium 133, 200MMX and it ran it Doom finally "acceptable".

But accelerated 68K can do it well but lacked marketshare due to price.

Here is an ongoing port to the Sharp X68000 with built in 25MHz 030 emulated (my next favorite PC):

[ Show youtube player ]

It is still a work in progress for the FULL PC version, but the game itself needs an accelerated architecture over the basic Amiga 1200 without chopping it down.

PS: The killer for the Amiga was not Doom. It was "relatively" cheap base PCs with easy upgrade path, despite being slower, that made OCS/ECS, Atari ST, Macs and even pre-PSX consoles look just "old".

Single architecture, upgradeable RAM, CPU, Video, Sound, Network - all options, that created a unified software base (DOS, Windows 3.x, Windows 98 etc...) that really killed the Amiga.

Even Amigas or Macs that were on PAR or faster, Amiga 3000, 4000, Mac Quadras were way expensive as those were full buys upfront vs pay as you go for the PC.

Easy to sell mom on a 499 or 699 PC, and let "dad" or yourself "upgrade it" later with VGA, Sound Blaster or ADlib sound cards, network cards sales over IPX when Doom came out was the thing, and etc...

[freehand]

Originally Posted by Valken

I wanted to mention that when Doom initially came out, it was actually terrible for MOST of the platforms that existed then, even PC!

386, 486, 68K, Megadrive 32x, Super Famicom / SNES, etc... were all sub 15FPS slide shows!

Even the PC need a VGA card + SB audio card to get anything good out of it and those were not necessarily standard box builds.

Only the PSX and Jaguar, not Saturn version were relatively good but they slowed that down to a survival horror version with awesome game ambiance (my opinion) and cutout a lot of content. 3D0 Doom didn't even pull it off and had to use the same cut down console version, but it had a better music track.

GameBoy Advance Doom was alright actually after they scaled the game down significantly but that came out years later.

It was really 486-100 or Pentiums that made Doom FAST and smooth even then. I remember my first Pentium 133, 200MMX and it ran it Doom finally "acceptable".

But accelerated 68K can do it well but lacked marketshare due to price.

Here is an ongoing port to the Sharp X68000 with built in 25MHz 030 emulated (my next favorite PC):

[ Show youtube player ]

It is still a work in progress for the FULL PC version, but the game itself needs an accelerated architecture over the basic Amiga 1200 without chopping it down.

PS: The killer for the Amiga was not Doom. It was "relatively" cheap base PCs with easy upgrade path, despite being slower, that made OCS/ECS, Atari ST, Macs and even pre-PSX consoles look just "old".

Single architecture, upgradeable RAM, CPU, Video, Sound, Network - all options, that created a unified software base (DOS, Windows 3.x, Windows 98 etc...) that really killed the Amiga.

Even Amigas or Macs that were on PAR or faster, Amiga 3000, 4000, Mac Quadras were way expensive as those were full buys upfront vs pay as you go for the PC.

Easy to sell mom on a 499 or 699 PC, and let "dad" or yourself "upgrade it" later with VGA, Sound Blaster or ADlib sound cards, network cards sales over IPX when Doom came out was the thing, and etc...

Doom on my dx2 66 was fine very good indeed but was a maxed out PC not every one back then was a young gamer we did come in older flavours

Never see a dx2 66 running Doom like a slide show unless it was some pile of **** bought off the shelf.

[Valken]

I remember the 486DX266 was plenty fast for many games, but Doom took it to task.

It is not 60 FPS for sure, ~ 20 FPS:

[ Show youtube player ]

I still have my Dothan single core 1.x GHZ PC here, next to my current PC. It runs Windows XP and I should set it up to run real hardware but my current PC, despite being 8 years old still runs all the games I want to run fast enough, except for Cyberpunk.

[freehand]

Originally Posted by Valken

I remember the 486DX266 was plenty fast for many games, but Doom took it to task.

It is not 60 FPS for sure, ~ 20 FPS:

[ Show youtube player ]

I still have my Dothan single core 1.x GHZ PC here, next to my current PC. It runs Windows XP and I should set it up to run real hardware but my current PC, despite being 8 years old still runs all the games I want to run fast enough, except for Cyberpunk.

mm I not so sure I run in full screen no need for border cut down I think he has Arsebook runnig in the back ground

[Spriteer]

Commodore management was the culprit. Chaos and money-leeching by top bosses killed the company.

Doom was an awesome game. I love to play it on my Amiga.

Right now I think CBM would have won if they:

1. Made an office version with 640x400 non-interlace mode and Amiga multitasking but with different model name.
2. Licensed older tech to mass manufacturers and themselves launched the newer tech models, licensing them later.
3. (As per wish of Commodore UK) released a cost-cut Amiga OCS games compatible console. Only floppy port, keyboard port, no expansions or HD connectors, a cheap mini keyboard, joypad and joystick ports. Manufacturing costs reduced to absolute minimum.

I started to write this list and realized Commodore would have had to get rid of Irving Gould and Mehdi Ali, kept Thomas Rattigan and launched an AAA Amiga. Could not have happened. Amiga was DOOMED - no matter what.

[Mathesar]

Originally Posted by AndyC

Well, here's a short video of me actively betraying the Amiga by running Doom on my Amiga A1200 with TerribleFire TF1260, running at 75MHz with Rev 6 CPU...

[ Show youtube player ]

:-)

How many fps are you managing? Somehow it doesn't seem that smooth.
(I have the same problem on my machine, I always wonder how people get perfectly smooth Doom on their Amiga's)

[Spriteer]

Originally Posted by Mathesar

How many fps are you managing? Somehow it doesn't seem that smooth.
(I have the same problem on my machine, I always wonder how people get perfectly smooth Doom on their Amiga's)

Using A3000/060/CV64-3D/scsi-HD makes it really smooth.
[ Show youtube player ]

[Mathesar]

Originally Posted by Spriteer

Using A3000/060/CV64-3D/scsi-HD makes it really smooth.
[ Show youtube player ]

That looks good indeed. I have exactly the same setup except probably for the 060 card. Maybe I should replace the socket on my Cyberstorm MKIII one of these days...

[Spriteer]

Originally Posted by Mathesar

That looks good indeed. I have exactly the same setup except probably for the 060 card. Maybe I should replace the socket on my Cyberstorm MKIII one of these days...

I love my setup and pray that it wont die on me. I dont know how I could ever replace it if something happens. MKIII should have better scsi though.

[Mathesar]

Originally Posted by Spriteer

I love my setup and pray that it wont die on me. I dont know how I could ever replace it if something happens. MKIII should have better scsi though.

I know the feeling. My setup DID die on me and I had to replace the MKIII with an A3660. On the plus side, the A3660 is much more serviceable then the MKIII and a simpler, more robust design. I have also replaced the battery (twice!) and the PAL chips. Next on the list is the SCSI chip that is acting up when it gets warm.
I am also afraid my harddisk (Quantum Atlas) will die one day so I have a replacement SCSI2SD on standby.... Oh, and the Cybervision64/3D is also quite old now....

[Spriteer]

Originally Posted by Mathesar

I know the feeling. My setup DID die on me and I had to replace the MKIII with an A3660. On the plus side, the A3660 is much more serviceable then the MKIII and a simpler, more robust design. I have also replaced the battery (twice!) and the PAL chips. Next on the list is the SCSI chip that is acting up when it gets warm.
I am also afraid my harddisk (Quantum Atlas) will die one day so I have a replacement SCSI2SD on standby.... Oh, and the Cybervision64/3D is also quite old now....

I think I know what my next nightmare will be about. I have been lucky so far. SCSI has been a bit of a mystique sometimes but everything still works. I now have SCSI2SD in it but I regularly put the original 2Gt drive on just to give it a spin. I have a 500Mb HD in reserve too. I have ZZ9000 that I have used too, but now use the good old C64/3D just for fun.

I dont know what I would actually add to the system. I got 3.1.4 for it but 3.2 was launched just after I got it.

[IanS]

As a child, I had an early video game system. 8 versions of tennis, squash and a lightgun to shoot at a dot on the screen. My parents then bought the Atari VCS. We played many of the early '80s games. Some were platform games. They were new and exciting, and of course, all 2D. I had the shiny new ZX81 for my birthday, followed by the 16K rampack for Xmas. Programming was fun, but I aso had simple adventure games for it. But 3D Monster Maze and 3D Defender were the games I really liked.

Atari 400 and 800XL next. Many games were just better looking versions of the VCS games... but Star Raiders, F15 Strike Eagle, Tomahawk, Mercenary and Rescue on Fractulus were my favourites. The Eidelon was interesting too. They were all '3D'. Amiga 1200 came next. Loved it. Used it for everything, upgraded it several times over the years. My brother had an A500, so I knew about Stunt Car Racer, and combat flight 'sims' etc. Many platformers and shoot 'em ups were essentially just tarted up versions of the 8 bit games. Doom came along on the PC. It was great, but I soon got AB3D, Gloom Deluxe, Breathless and a few others. They were much fun too.

'3D' games had been around for a long time before Doom appeared. It just ramped up the realism and offered heart pumping gameplay. The Amiga was best at 2D games, but most were just remakes of remakes, with different graphics and more levels. Consoles did it better and/or cheaper.

The Amiga couldn't adapt, because Commodore weren't adapting to the market. A PC had a monitor, a disk drive, a hard disk, it could be upgraded with any of the latest 'custom' chips that came on ISA, VLB or PCI plug in boards. Some of those custom chipsets became standards, but they didn't stand still like CBM. Economies of scale, some open standards and fierce competition brought PC prices down. Amigas were expensive to upgrade in comparison. The Amiga died a slow, agonising death.

Doom didn't kill the Amiga, nor did 3D. Apathy, complacency and indifference killed it. Many people were too busy playing Doom to actually notice. ??

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by IanS

A PC had a monitor, a disk drive, a hard disk, it could be upgraded with any of the latest 'custom' chips that came on ISA, VLB or PCI plug in boards.

And motherboard upgrades too, right? Most PC 'upgrades' were to a new PC, because often the only part left of the old one was the case - assuming that was compatible!

But PC owners didn't mind. They relished the idea of spending even more money to get the latest hardware.

What really killed killed the Amiga was cheapskate users. They destroyed the software market by stealing pirating games, and destroyed the hardware market by refusing to upgrade. But most of them were kids so it's understandable - they didn't have the money. Adults did, but they bought PCs because it was the business standard so they could justify the outlay (couldn't spend that much on a 'games machine'!).

[Konrad]

No, just no.

I still used by A4000HD 040/25 CV64/3D for everything when my brother already had advanced to 133Mhz PC.
So it's not that I didn't want the Amiga to stay or be the winner in this war.

I followed both markets from A500 until the end of my Amiga Era. It wasn't the pirate games, as those were very well available also for MSDOS. It was even easier there.

Staying with the Amiga was expensive in comparison to PC. As a gamer you didn't get much out of it in comparison to the competition. Not just PC, but also Megadrive and SNES.

Regarding just PC, they got cheaper fast and always had HD, faster CPU, graphics card. My brother didn't have problems to upgrade, it's simply BS saying that wasn't possible. The games library was much better and market increasing. Developers could pull off much better games and faced better sales figures.

Commodore didn't really develop something new.
As an allrounder PC got better than Amiga.
As games console SNES and Megadrive offered much more. And the CD32 wasn't competitive against those consoles from the beginning, performance simply wasn't up to the task.

If there is someone to blame, then it's Commodore.

[SquawkBox]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

What really killed killed the Amiga was cheapskate users. They destroyed the software market by pirating games, and destroyed the hardware market by refusing to upgrade. But most of them were kids so it's understandable - they didn't have the money. Adults did, but they bought PCs because it was the business standard so they could justify the outlay.

I think I belong there in a way, maybe I should feel a little ashamed . Never bought a single Amiga game, also refused to upgrade my A500. From reading the French magazines back then, I was under the impression the trapdoor ram expansion was the only upgrade available to us, or at least the most advertised. Certainly, the Amiga deserves better, I told myself. Maybe I would have considered buying other upgrades assuming these had been better advertised and reviewed properly.

Even though I wasn't too hot on spending money on retail games (except for CPC games still in the tops, and of course console cartridges in relatively small batches), I could ask my parents for any reasonably priced console or computer. By late 1994, I got bored of the sheer amount of mediocre games (despite the fact that I was pirating all of them, naughty naughty!). My discontent had started to build up slowly with shallow games I used to receive in my mail in heaps such as Goldrunner. By 1995, I had enough of it, decided to store the Amiga, the secondary FDD along with the joystick in the basement. Afterwards, went through a transitory stage during which I stayed out of using any machine for a few months, then bought the necessary parts for a Pentium II based PC (not to be playing Doom or any other fps for the matter).

[sparhawk]

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

By late 1994, I got bored of the sheer amount of mediocre games (despite the fact that I was pirating all of them, naughty naughty!). My discontent had started to build up slowly with shallow games I used to receive in my mail in heaps such as Goldrunner.

Not sure when exactly I switched over to the PC though I remember that I had a 8086 laptop with MS-DOS and Borland C and later I bought a 80286.


I do remember that I found the PC always mediocre to my Amiga. The PC had no sound (which was important for games), this shitty 4 color CGA graphics, so nothing that could compete with the Amiga. That changed when there was an affordable soundcard available and at least an EGA card. I remember playing Might And Magic 3 on such a setup and loved it. I think that was about the time when started to no longer think of the Amiga, though I always considered (and still do) the M68K CPU much better and nicer to code for.

[turrican3]

i didn't betray the amiga for doom but for wing commander IV.