Was anyone else disappointed with the A1200?

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by Gorf

FastRAM access in the original A4000 with A3640 board are very underwhelming - 11.5MB/s read, 6.1MB/s write. This configuration was a total waste of an otherwise nice CPU)

You guys wanted FastRAM on the motherboard. This is the result.

Originally Posted by Promilus

If you can prove that A1200 wasn't produced and sold after 94 then I'll admit I was wrong.

After Commodore folded in 1994 there was a gap of ~2 years before the Amiga Technologies A1200 came out. Unfortunately most retailers (including me) weren't holding much stock. In 1994 I could have sold truckloads, but by 1996 demand had dropped off - for obvious reasons (Commodore was dead, time to sadly move on). Having said that I had no problem selling the few AT A1200's I got even at the higher price. If only I had known what was going to happen, I would have stocked up.

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by Gorf

Unlike the ST we only got 7Mhz...

But unlike the ST we got a blitter and sprites etc., so CPU speed wasn't so important. And we were still faster than a Mac at 8MHz (effectively 6MHz).

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by Cyprian

Just to summarize:
1984 - A1000:
- CPU 8MHz
- Bus bandwidth: 3.5MB/s for the CPU, 3.5MHz (1.7MHz for the CPU) 16bit memory bus
- 8bit audio
1994 - A4000
- CPU 25MHz
- Bus bandwidth: 7MB/s for the CPU, 3.5MHz (1.7MHz for the CPU) 32bit memory bus
- 8bit audio

Just to summarize:
1984: 286 CPU 6MHz, 16 bit ISA bus
- 1 bit audio
1994: 486 CPU 25MHz, 16 bit ISA bus
- 1 bit audio

In a meantime they produced tons of the same hardware in a different cases (desktop, .

Look at the Sony:
1994 - PS1:

2000 - PS One:

Same hardware in a slightly smaller case.

Sounds like devolution

If Sony followed the path of the Commodore, in the year 2000 we would have tons of PS1 hardware in a different fancy cases with different stickers and PS2 would have spec: CPU 99MHz with bus bandwidth: 260MB/s

If Commodore had followed the path of Sony, in 1985 we would get the A1000 in a tiny box with no keyboard. In 1987 we would get the A500 in a tiny box with no keyboard, and in 1990 the A3000 in a tiny box with no keyboard. Finally in 1993 we would get the CD32 in a tiny box with no... oh wait.

Q: Why did Sony release the PS One when they had the PS2?

A: Because there were a ton of PS1 titles out there, some of which wouldn't work on the the PS2, and because many people were quite happy with the performance of the PS1. Initially it outsold all other consoles including the PS2. By 2006 it had sold 28 million units.

If we consider that the PS1 and PS One were basically identical, from 1994 to 2006 is 12 years of selling the same hardware. This was a winning strategy for Sony, who realized the importance of maintaining a stable gaming platform.

1994 to 2000 is 6 years. In that time Sony only sold one model. Commodore sold the A500 for less than 5 years. If we consider the A1000 and A500+ to be essentially the same hardware, that's 7 years (barely longer than the PS1 alone, and a much shorter time than the PS1 and PS One combined).

The A2000 was not the same hardware. It had a hard drive, and slots to take other cards. Within a year it got a 14MHz 68020 with MMU and FPU. A year later it had a 25MHz 68030 with RAM expansion capacity of 112MB (a staggering amount in those days). The A2000 was produced for a mere 4 years (1987 to 1991), but received increasingly powerful 3rd party hardware including the Video Toaster and GVP's G-Force 040 which had a 33MHz 68040, up to 64MB RAM, SCSI 2 DMA controller, high speed buffered serial port, and a local 32 bit bus to take the EGS 110/24 RTG card with 8MB of VRAM running at 440MB/s (50MB/s CPU transfer rate).

To describe that as 'the same hardware in different cases' is... just silly.

[Promilus]

Originally Posted by sokolovic

I can prove you that Master System was produced and sold well after 2000.
The A1200 was Commodore flagship between 1992/1994. Escom ones were nothing but a way to grab some money with an old IP after everyone left the Amiga boat.

No you can't prove that. All you can prove is that e.g. Tec Toy produced cloned device for market on Brazil with similar name to Sega Master System. While Escom did produce Amiga on Amiga components and holding rights to do so.

[Promilus]

@Bruce

Just to summarize:
1984: 286 CPU 6MHz, 16 bit ISA bus
- 1 bit audio
1994: 486 CPU 25MHz, 16 bit ISA bus
- 1 bit audio

Yeah, that's nice manipulation. It's 1992: 486 CPU 66MHz, 32bit VESA LOCAL BUS 133MB/s, SB Pro using 8bits of 16bit ISA.
1994: Pentium CPU 90MHz, 32bit PCI bus, 16bit stereo 44.1kHz audio.

If we consider that the PS1 and PS One were basically identical, from 1994 to 2006 is 12 years of selling the same hardware. This was a winning strategy for Sony, who realized the importance of maintaining a stable gaming platform.

Yes. And in the meantime they released pretty much successful PS2 which provided PS1 compatibility and just few years later PS3. Had they try to just slightly upgrade PS1 Dreamcast would eat them whole. And that's exactly what happened with Amiga.

but received increasingly powerful 3rd party hardware

Well, obviously, since Commodore was unable to make any such hardware themselves. And now hobbyists and enthusiasts around the world make even more powerful addons when it actually was Commodore's job in the first place. Along with creating RTG standard and audio standard. And they failed at that too.

To describe that as 'the same hardware in different cases' is... just silly.

Well if you grab Micronik A500 Tower you can use most of those A2k addons.

[sokolovic]

Originally Posted by Promilus

No you can't prove that. All you can prove is that e.g. Tec Toy produced cloned device for market on Brazil with similar name to Sega Master System. While Escom did produce Amiga on Amiga components and holding rights to do so.

Tec Toys are officially licensed by Sega and holds rights to produce Sega's consoles in Mercosur.



Anyway my point was that by the time Escom resume production and sales of the A1200 (in basically the same form than 4 years before !), the gap was too big and the Amiga market was gone. Developpers and publishers left the Amiga and the A1200 availability was nowhere near like in Commodore days. I'm not even sure that the Escom A1200 were released or distributed officially outside Germany and UK.

[Promilus]

Developpers and publishers left the Amiga and the A1200 availability was nowhere near like in Commodore days

Of course they did. They were leaving even when Commodore was still alive. And the same can be said about local computer shops (those around the corner as you've said), their profit depends on how much you spent on computer and how many computers they sell. So it's either few expensive ones and dozens of cheap ones. And A1200 didn't fit either as it was fairly cheap but not really popular anymore. Escom did restart production in 95. But most distribution channels were broken by that point and obviously making new games on obsolete platform with limited userbase isn't something big game developers can make for living. Still, there were developers doing amiga games well past 96.

Tec Toys are officially licensed by Sega and holds rights to produce Sega's consoles in Mercosur.

I did know they were licensed distributors (both consoles, accessories and games), didn't know they were licensed producers. It doesn't matter much as worldwide MS was EL by the 94. It only lived on that particular local market. And as for the components I kind of have doubts they got permission to produce sega chips from original blueprints as that would require them of acquiring IP owned by Sega and at that particular time Tectoy have their own financial problems. Also no technology past mega drive was reintroduced by them.

[Cyprian]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

But unlike the ST we got a blitter and sprites etc., so CPU speed wasn't so important. And we were still faster than a Mac at 8MHz (effectively 6MHz).

we also had the BLiTTER but a bit later


in 1985, the Amiga had several advantages over the Atari, and the Atari also had its advantages over the Amiga.


anyway, let's not steal the topic

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

You guys wanted FastRAM on the motherboard. This is the result.

Nobody would have minded FastRAM on the CPU-Board, if that would have come with a decent memory controller and adequate bandwidth so the 68040 could reach its full potential in the A4000.

But only very few put up with the crippled design of the actual A4000, resulting in poor sales.

[Promilus]

What's the difference if fast RAM was on mainboard through SIMM slots? It wasn't so slow because of being on mainboard. It was so slow because of on-board controller (RAMSEY) was slow. And there was no option to make it faster should faster CPU card be inserted into machine. Yes. PC chipset was slightly limiting as well (e.g. no PC133 on 440BX as well as 133MHz FSB although many MB manufacturers indeed modified their products to actually support those despite official lack of 440BX for those speeds) but there was usually intermediate memory to even the odds. L1 cache in case of 386, L2 cache in case of 486 and Pentium. AFAIK there were attempts to emulate processor cache on some amiga turbo cards but it was quirky when on PC that was somewhat standard solution with fairly big impact on performance.

[gimbal]

The idea of a computer as we have known it is going to stop eventually. It is already happening right now, desktops have become laptops and tablets. The rush for more performance is going to change to the rush for being able to run stuff on a battery.

Doesn't matter how old or new the hardware is, the current form factor is in its twilight years. Thin clients and cloud computing is where it is going. The current generations are already being bottle fed that way, who's kids do not have "tablet time" now?

[oscar_ates]

By 1995 around escom times Amiga was all dead. Individual enthusiasts were only releasing new games like virtual karting. An italian guy released the game alone. These comments are taken from lemon amiga:

ReTroViRuS 2010-12-12
(4/10)
If I remember correctly, the magazine Amiga Games added the follow caption to screenshots of this game in their review: "Virtual Karting pushes the Amiga to its limits." I thought that was a very sad statement in a time when people were playing games like Ridge Racer on Sony's PlayStation.
View all comments (1037)

Another one:

Fizza 2005-05-03
(1/10)
I knew there was trouble on the horizon when the new Amiga head said this was his favourite game. Let's not beat around the bush, it was crap, the graphics were crap and it was an insult to try to portray this as anything else.

Fizza 2005-05-03
(2/10)
Rather than trying to sort the problem with Amiga games at that point, crap became good as long as it was an attempt to be 'next gen'.

I was laughing when I read these comments.

[oscar_ates]

Another good one about capital punishment game:

SlappyCromwell 2021-01-26
(1/10)
This game sums up everything that was wrong about the Amiga scene in 1996. People like me were hanging on, not wanting to move to PCs, with the delusional hope that the world could be salvaged. The CD32 will save us! The PPC will save us! An 060 upgrade will save us! An FPU upgrade will save us!

We hoped that a good game would be released, that a developer would support our dying platform, but the writing was on the wall. The party was over, there was just stragglers like us hanging on.

[TCD]

I watched this video yesterday and couldn't help to notice certain parallels to the end of Commodore: [ Show youtube player ] (be strong Jope )

[BigD]

Originally Posted by oscar_ates

By 1995 around escom times Amiga was all dead. Individual enthusiasts were only releasing new games like virtual karting. An italian guy released the game alone. These comments are taken from lemon amiga:

ReTroViRuS 2010-12-12
(4/10)
If I remember correctly, the magazine Amiga Games added the follow caption to screenshots of this game in their review: "Virtual Karting pushes the Amiga to its limits." I thought that was a very sad statement...

...Rather than trying to sort the problem with Amiga games at that point, crap became good as long as it was an attempt to be 'next gen'.

I was laughing when I read these comments.

Virtual GP was released around that time which did push the Amiga to its limits. OnEscapee and the release of TFX on cover disc were just around the corner.

Slam Tilt, THE best Pinball game ever was released in 1996. It felt like we'd finally left the OCS era behind and it was AGA/RTS all the way! Upgrading your Amiga was finally expected of you!

I enjoyed 1996/97 but 1998/99 were harder with only Bubble Heroes, Generic Species, Phoenix Fighters and Napalm to numb the pain! We also had the excitement of the Doom port, ADoom! So not all bad and if you mainly used the Amiga for school/uni work it was all fine to be honest with AmigaWriter 2 and Draw Studio 2 released in the latter end of the 90s!

[BigD]

... and the best present ever (above ADoom) was Blitz Bombers from Leading Edge being finally released on cover disc in 1998 following the barny with Hudson Soft!

[grond]

Originally Posted by oscar_ates

By 1995 around escom times Amiga was all dead. Individual enthusiasts were only releasing new games like virtual karting. An italian guy released the game alone. These comments are taken from lemon amiga:

ReTroViRuS 2010-12-12
(4/10)
If I remember correctly, the magazine Amiga Games added the follow caption to screenshots of this game in their review: "Virtual Karting pushes the Amiga to its limits." I thought that was a very sad statement in a time when people were playing games like Ridge Racer on Sony's PlayStation.
View all comments (1037)

I remember this very well. The coder was present on usenet groups and also posted lots of crazy ideas how a next-gen Amiga should look. I also thought the game sucked. Well, it was a time of crazy ideas about what a next-gen Amiga should look like and he did write and publish a game when hardly anyone else did (we were only interested in demo coding which actually leads to nothing useful at all). He deserved respect for this but actually my impression was he got too much of it. Amiga magazines of the time where fantasizing about how eventually Amiga would celebrate a triumphant comeback and I remember reading an editorial in one of the two remaining German Amiga magazines that said something along the lines that the future seemed promising and quoted "[insert name of Italian coder]'s ambitious projects" as proof for their stance. I think this was when I knew I should look for something else as a next computer system (BeBox seemed very interesting at the time but I eventually decided I wouldn't embark on yet another niche system and became a linux-user ).

Btw, with all this disappointment stuff: my A1200 was the computer I most enjoyed using at the time and my current PC is the best computer I have ever had. I also enjoy using it more than I now enjoy using my Amigas. The only pleasure the PC can't give me is 68k assembly coding. Writing machine code and then running it in an emulator is so pointless (other than for debugging).

[sandruzzo]

based upon its creator VirtualGp didn't use any chunky screen at all!

[ Show youtube player ]

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by TCD

I watched this video yesterday and couldn't help to notice certain parallels to the end of Commodore: [ Show youtube player ] (be strong Jope )

Can’t listen to this video… not because of the tragic story, but because of the way he pronounces NOKIA as NOKEEEEA every single time

[oscar_ates]

Originally Posted by BigD

I enjoyed 1996/97 but 1998/99 were harder with only Bubble Heroes, Generic Species, Phoenix Fighters and Napalm to numb the pain! We also had the excitement of the Doom port, ADoom! So not all bad and if you mainly used the Amiga for school/uni work it was all fine to be honest with AmigaWriter 2 and Draw Studio 2 released in the latter end of the 90s!

I never used word processor software on Amiga, however I read from internet that the planar graphics system creates a ghost effect when you scroll the pages. And this ghost effect creates inconvenience and headache for the user when they use it for long times. This was the reason PCs were used for productivity software with chunky mode and Amiga lacked behind in the docs arena. Too bad Commodore could not create a chunky mode on A1200 after 7 years releasing the original Amiga. That shows the gross inefficiency or non-existance of R&D at commodore. Ok, there were 3rd party RTG cards with chunky pixels but how many people could afford it or used it? Majority stayed with the stock A500. Probably the ratio was 100ppm.