Searching for Sherlock Holmes - Consulting Detective CDTV - Page 9

musashi5150 · 27 April 2007, 22:58

Hey guess what?

The missing piece is GOOD

DoIO() still says 'error' but it's loading what looks like nice data

Maybe DoIO always thinks CDXL tracks are errored as there is NO error correction?... Still, this is some good progress I think

I'll wait to hear back from Toni before I start dumping in case there are any tests he wants me to do. As once I start dumping the CD will be "unavailable" for a while

Big kudos to Toni for finding the hidden command

DamienD · 27 April 2007, 23:00

Wow!!! Don't really won't to repeat the post made only a few minutes ago but...

thor · 27 April 2007, 23:08

Thanks musashi5150 and Toni.

@Damien: Not sure why you've put my name between the two great guys. I've sent the CD to musashi on purpose, so I don't have to do anything

DamienD · 27 April 2007, 23:24

You've just answered your own question

Quote:

Originally Posted by thor

I've sent the CD to musashi on purpose

...and besides that you've given technical input

musashi5150 · 27 April 2007, 23:24

C'mon thor, you're just as much a part of this as anyone else - without you there would be no project

thor · 27 April 2007, 23:28

Ok, I admit that I was just fishing for compliments

musashi and Toni really should get all praise

viddi · 28 April 2007, 13:39

And what about me?

I started this thread!

All I can do is

again. THANKS musashi, Toni and thor !!!

andreas · 28 April 2007, 18:16

No thor, you MUST be named too!
A 100% undamaged version of this game is VERY rare and you had it!

Getting the game off ebay may not be the biggest problem of all, but some ppl really do not know how to treat CDTV CDs ...

Calgor · 01 May 2007, 18:35

Don't know if you still want to copy the CD, but your best bet is to copy the CD using CloneCD and select to copy subchannel data (some copy protection and CD+G karaoke title use this), copy as RAW, and for some titles you will have to set to ignore errors as that is part of the copy protection. Although CDTV used copy protection???

Also, not all CD copiers are alike. The later DVD-rewriters are usually better or Plextor SCSI. This way you could make a copy of the original for backup. I know that Liteon DVD-rewriters of 2-3 yrs old are great for backups. They also have a program called k-probe that analyses the CD disc for hard and soft read errors, letting you know if the cd is so bad that the drive is correcting errors for you (which you dont usually know about), etc, as there is some redundancy built in.

If the disk is damaged, then once you have got all the data you can get, maybe you can try one of those cd cleaners?

Maybe the CDXL tracks are subchannel data, hence they are always erred. If my memory serves me correctly, the CD read does not always return the same info when reading these tracks and the CD player fixes it up for you or reads it multiple times. Copiers even have options to correct the subchannel data or not. Hence to copy such a CD maybe you need to use the tips I suggested above.

Here is a brief attempt of someone to copy subchannel data (sorry best i could find with quick search):
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/...hp/t53910.html

If I have gone off on a tangent, please ignore! Just trying to suggest help from a different angle.

Edit: Okay, so the actual CDXL file might not be stored in subchannel data, but who knows if some CDTV titles use this area.

musashi5150 · 01 May 2007, 20:39

Thanks for your input Calgor - all points of view are appreciated here. Although in this case Toni and I have a theory that the problem with the disc is due to a mastering error. And because the CDTV drive is pretty dumb it manages to read the disc ok

But for the record I tried CloneCD (along with many other packages) and nothing could image the disc.

On another note - sorry for the delay in action on this project, I've been a bit busy in "real life" over the last couple of days. But dumping of the CDXL tracks started today!

It's going to take a long time to image the CD - but you guys will be first to know. Toni suggests to image the disc at least 3 times (to try and detect any errors as the tracks have NO error correction) which is probably a good idea... huuuuu

But rest assured 'something' is happening here

I just hope I can use my USB interface and WinUAE to read the data from the A600s harddrive... or I'll get serial rage

Calgor · 02 May 2007, 08:58

If CloneCD cannot copy it, I suggest that your CD hardware or software configuration is the problem. Done properly, mastering errors do not cause the copy to not work (AFAIK). If the CD is damaged that is more likely to stop the copying.

It has been shown that no single program can copy all CDs, you often need to use one software to copy one type of cd, and another software to copy another type.

What is your hardware cd copier (make, model, firmware version) you are trying to copy with and I can check for you what your hardware's capabilities are, and maybe give suggestion what software and exact software settings to use.

Toni Wilen · 02 May 2007, 09:02

I still think it must be mastering error because even request to get full 2352 byte sector (or only subchannel or C2) results in CRC error result from Windows IOCTL-call.. (IOCTL_CD_RAW or something, don't remember). Seems to point in error in lower level data.

Tested with modified WinUAE + original CD.

Of course problem also can be caused by CD/DVD drive firmware bug..

musashi5150 · 02 May 2007, 09:08

Also other people (not just me) have tried to image this before and failed... but I'll dig out my drive info later when I'm at home.

Calgor · 02 May 2007, 09:38

One possibility that you cannot play this CDTV disc on your CD drive or copy it properly is because it stores information in subchannel data the same way that Karaoke CD+G discs do and why many CD players also cannot play (or copy) these discs. You also need to copy at a LOWER speed (not the maximum) to successfully copy these discs. (This is why some ppl may find older drives working "better").

I have found that the CDTV (and CD32) is infact capable of playing Karaoke CD+G discs, and as such could theoretically use the subchannel data for other purposes:
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/amiga/CD32-FAQ/part1/

As an example, the very popular Pioneer dvd writers cannot read CD+G discs.

Just a real possibility why many may not have been able to copy the discs properly despite using many software.

Anyway, let me know your model when you get home.

Edit: As an aside, note that the subchannel data is in addition to the 2352 RAW data. There are up to 96 bytes of subchannel data. And I believe if you copy it, there is no need for things such as a PSX mod-chip: http://knowhow.cdfreaks.com/article.php?ID=119
cdfreaks is an excellent site and has excellent forums on CD information.

musashi5150 · 02 May 2007, 09:48

I remembered my drive details are available in my order history from eBuyer

This is what I have:

LG GDR-8164BL 16x52 DVD-ROM Internal IDE
LG GSA-4167BAL 16x DVD±RW Dual Layer Internal IDE

Toni Wilen · 02 May 2007, 10:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calgor

One possibility that you cannot play this CDTV disc on your CD drive or copy it properly is because it stores information in subchannel data the same way that Karaoke CD+G discs do and why many CD players also cannot play (or copy) these discs. You also need to copy at a LOWER speed (not the maximum) to successfully copy these discs. (This is why some ppl may find older drives working "better").

It still does not explain why user data fails to read with crc error. Data in subchannel has "nothing" to do with user data. It can't be caused by too high speed either (retrying didn't help) and I think speed is irrelevant in non-crappy modern drives (perhaps this "semi-myth" was started when first 10x+ drives appeared, most of them were quite unreliable crap, same with first "high" speed writers..)

btw, yes, both CDTV and CD32 do support CD+G subchannel data (which is not emulated because I don't have any CD+G discs) but in this case game only asks for 2336 byte sector and it does not enable subchannel hardware (CDTV has separate serial to parallel converter in hardware, standard TTL-chips.., that handles subchannel data)

Quote:

Edit: As an aside, note that the subchannel data is in addition to the 2352 RAW data. There are up to 96 bytes of subchannel data.

Trying to read only the subchannel failed with exact same error.

Perhaps there is some "simple" explanation or it is mastering error that accidentally works with CDTV drive..

Quote:

And I believe if you copy it, there is no need for things such as a PSX mod-chip.

No, this is extra protection that the game checks after booting (after modchip has done its job)

Calgor · 02 May 2007, 10:54

Your 4167 supports DAO RAW and CD+G and I think also DAO/96 (i.e. all subchannel data). These options also need to be selected in the copying program, and the copying program should also show which is supported. BlindWrite v5+ is a good alternative to CloneCD.

Not sure about the other one. Usually the DVD writer is better at copying.

It is good to try copying in the following order:
1. CloneCD: DAO-RAW/96, read subchannel data and write uncorrected, fast error skip enabled, intelligent bad sector scanner enabled and set to 100 error skip, amplify weak sectors disabled
2. As 1, but amplify weak sectors enabled
3. As 1, but emulate option (not sure where this is?)
4. BlindWrite: same options as 1

These are with 3 year old programs, so newer options may exist, as that was when I got my hardware/software for these tasks (I use LiteON SOHW-812S). Some disks with lots of intentional errors may take up to 1 hour to copy.

Good luck if you have time, I think there is no harm in trying.

Edit: Appears Toni has cleared up the subchannel bit, I have little knowledge of any CDTV/CD32 title layout. But the copying method above may still (hopefully) be able to copy the disc. Weak sectors is when the disc is not written correctly and will return read errors (and used in some copy protection).

musashi5150 · 06 May 2007, 18:52

The first videotrack has now been dumped and I'm starting on the next one (there are 3). The data could turn out to be a load of rubbish... but fingers crossed it isn't.

It took 5 days 24/7. As the others are a similar size, I expect the next one to be done around the end of next week

tteich · 06 May 2007, 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by musashi5150

The first videotrack has now been dumped and I'm starting on the next one (there are 3). The data could turn out to be a load of rubbish... but fingers crossed it isn't.

It took 5 days 24/7. As the others are a similar size, I expect the next one to be done around the end of next week

Holy!!! You are a hero! Just curious: isn't there any other network option? I have an A4000 with Ethernet card. what kind of machine do you use that has only a serial port? if it turns out that the data are corrupted, could we try to dump it on another machine?

nujack · 06 May 2007, 21:08

Perfect!!!
Thank you very much musashi5150.
But do you know if it is possible to use the CDTV-drive in a standard PC or Amiga-Tower? Maybe that would be an option to speed up this procedure.

01 May 2007, 18:35	#169
Calgor (Amigas && Amigos)++ Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Anrea Posts: 999	Don't know if you still want to copy the CD, but your best bet is to copy the CD using CloneCD and select to copy subchannel data (some copy protection and CD+G karaoke title use this), copy as RAW, and for some titles you will have to set to ignore errors as that is part of the copy protection. Although CDTV used copy protection??? Also, not all CD copiers are alike. The later DVD-rewriters are usually better or Plextor SCSI. This way you could make a copy of the original for backup. I know that Liteon DVD-rewriters of 2-3 yrs old are great for backups. They also have a program called k-probe that analyses the CD disc for hard and soft read errors, letting you know if the cd is so bad that the drive is correcting errors for you (which you dont usually know about), etc, as there is some redundancy built in. If the disk is damaged, then once you have got all the data you can get, maybe you can try one of those cd cleaners? Maybe the CDXL tracks are subchannel data, hence they are always erred. If my memory serves me correctly, the CD read does not always return the same info when reading these tracks and the CD player fixes it up for you or reads it multiple times. Copiers even have options to correct the subchannel data or not. Hence to copy such a CD maybe you need to use the tips I suggested above. Here is a brief attempt of someone to copy subchannel data (sorry best i could find with quick search): http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/...hp/t53910.html If I have gone off on a tangent, please ignore! Just trying to suggest help from a different angle. Edit: Okay, so the actual CDXL file might not be stored in subchannel data, but who knows if some CDTV titles use this area. Last edited by Calgor; 01 May 2007 at 18:55.

02 May 2007, 09:38	#174
Calgor (Amigas && Amigos)++ Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Anrea Posts: 999	One possibility that you cannot play this CDTV disc on your CD drive or copy it properly is because it stores information in subchannel data the same way that Karaoke CD+G discs do and why many CD players also cannot play (or copy) these discs. You also need to copy at a LOWER speed (not the maximum) to successfully copy these discs. (This is why some ppl may find older drives working "better"). I have found that the CDTV (and CD32) is infact capable of playing Karaoke CD+G discs, and as such could theoretically use the subchannel data for other purposes: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/amiga/CD32-FAQ/part1/ As an example, the very popular Pioneer dvd writers cannot read CD+G discs. Just a real possibility why many may not have been able to copy the discs properly despite using many software. Anyway, let me know your model when you get home. Edit: As an aside, note that the subchannel data is in addition to the 2352 RAW data. There are up to 96 bytes of subchannel data. And I believe if you copy it, there is no need for things such as a PSX mod-chip: http://knowhow.cdfreaks.com/article.php?ID=119 cdfreaks is an excellent site and has excellent forums on CD information. Last edited by Calgor; 02 May 2007 at 09:47.

02 May 2007, 10:54	#177
Calgor (Amigas && Amigos)++ Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Anrea Posts: 999	Your 4167 supports DAO RAW and CD+G and I think also DAO/96 (i.e. all subchannel data). These options also need to be selected in the copying program, and the copying program should also show which is supported. BlindWrite v5+ is a good alternative to CloneCD. Not sure about the other one. Usually the DVD writer is better at copying. It is good to try copying in the following order: 1. CloneCD: DAO-RAW/96, read subchannel data and write uncorrected, fast error skip enabled, intelligent bad sector scanner enabled and set to 100 error skip, amplify weak sectors disabled 2. As 1, but amplify weak sectors enabled 3. As 1, but emulate option (not sure where this is?) 4. BlindWrite: same options as 1 These are with 3 year old programs, so newer options may exist, as that was when I got my hardware/software for these tasks (I use LiteON SOHW-812S). Some disks with lots of intentional errors may take up to 1 hour to copy. Good luck if you have time, I think there is no harm in trying. Edit: Appears Toni has cleared up the subchannel bit, I have little knowledge of any CDTV/CD32 title layout. But the copying method above may still (hopefully) be able to copy the disc. Weak sectors is when the disc is not written correctly and will return read errors (and used in some copy protection). Last edited by Calgor; 02 May 2007 at 11:05.

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27 April 2007, 22:58	#161
musashi5150 move.w #$4489,$dff07e Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Norfolk, UK Age: 43 Posts: 2,351	Hey guess what? The missing piece is *GOOD* DoIO() still says 'error' but it's loading what looks like nice data Maybe DoIO always thinks CDXL tracks are errored as there is NO error correction?... Still, this is some good progress I think I'll wait to hear back from Toni before I start dumping in case there are any tests he wants me to do. As once I start dumping the CD will be "unavailable" for a while Big kudos to Toni for finding the hidden command

27 April 2007, 23:00	#162
DamienD Banned Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: London / Sydney Age: 47 Posts: 20,420	Wow!!! Don't really won't to repeat the post made only a few minutes ago but...

27 April 2007, 23:08	#163
thor Registered User Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 899	Thanks musashi5150 and Toni. @Damien: Not sure why you've put my name between the two great guys. I've sent the CD to musashi on purpose, so I don't have to do anything

27 April 2007, 23:24	#165
musashi5150 move.w #$4489,$dff07e Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Norfolk, UK Age: 43 Posts: 2,351	C'mon thor, you're just as much a part of this as anyone else - without you there would be no project

27 April 2007, 23:28	#166
thor Registered User Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 899	Ok, I admit that I was just fishing for compliments musashi and Toni really should get all praise

28 April 2007, 13:39	#167
viddi Moderator Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Germany Age: 44 Posts: 4,015	And what about me? I started this thread! All I can do is again. THANKS musashi, Toni and thor !!!

28 April 2007, 18:16	#168
andreas Zone Friend Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Germany Age: 50 Posts: 5,857	No thor, you MUST be named too! A 100% undamaged version of this game is VERY rare and you had it! Getting the game off ebay may not be the biggest problem of all, but some ppl really do not know how to treat CDTV CDs ...

01 May 2007, 20:39	#170
musashi5150 move.w #$4489,$dff07e Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Norfolk, UK Age: 43 Posts: 2,351	Thanks for your input Calgor - all points of view are appreciated here. Although in this case Toni and I have a theory that the problem with the disc is due to a mastering error. And because the CDTV drive is pretty dumb it manages to read the disc ok But for the record I tried CloneCD (along with many other packages) and nothing could image the disc. On another note - sorry for the delay in action on this project, I've been a bit busy in "real life" over the last couple of days. But dumping of the CDXL tracks started today! It's going to take a long time to image the CD - but you guys will be first to know. Toni suggests to image the disc at least 3 times (to try and detect any errors as the tracks have NO error correction) which is probably a good idea... huuuuu But rest assured 'something' is happening here I just hope I can use my USB interface and WinUAE to read the data from the A600s harddrive... or I'll get serial rage

02 May 2007, 08:58	#171
Calgor (Amigas && Amigos)++ Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Anrea Posts: 999	If CloneCD cannot copy it, I suggest that your CD hardware or software configuration is the problem. Done properly, mastering errors do not cause the copy to not work (AFAIK). If the CD is damaged that is more likely to stop the copying. It has been shown that no single program can copy all CDs, you often need to use one software to copy one type of cd, and another software to copy another type. What is your hardware cd copier (make, model, firmware version) you are trying to copy with and I can check for you what your hardware's capabilities are, and maybe give suggestion what software and exact software settings to use.

02 May 2007, 09:02	#172
Toni Wilen WinUAE developer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland Age: 49 Posts: 26,574	I still think it must be mastering error because even request to get full 2352 byte sector (or only subchannel or C2) results in CRC error result from Windows IOCTL-call.. (IOCTL_CD_RAW or something, don't remember). Seems to point in error in lower level data. Tested with modified WinUAE + original CD. Of course problem also can be caused by CD/DVD drive firmware bug..

02 May 2007, 09:08	#173
musashi5150 move.w #$4489,$dff07e Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Norfolk, UK Age: 43 Posts: 2,351	Also other people (not just me) have tried to image this before and failed... but I'll dig out my drive info later when I'm at home.

02 May 2007, 09:48	#175
musashi5150 move.w #$4489,$dff07e Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Norfolk, UK Age: 43 Posts: 2,351	I remembered my drive details are available in my order history from eBuyer This is what I have: LG GDR-8164BL 16x52 DVD-ROM Internal IDE LG GSA-4167BAL 16x DVD±RW Dual Layer Internal IDE

06 May 2007, 18:52	#178
musashi5150 move.w #$4489,$dff07e Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Norfolk, UK Age: 43 Posts: 2,351	The first videotrack has now been dumped and I'm starting on the next one (there are 3). The data could turn out to be a load of rubbish... but fingers crossed it isn't. It took 5 days 24/7. As the others are a similar size, I expect the next one to be done around the end of next week

06 May 2007, 21:08	#180
nujack Zone Friend Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Leipzig/Germany Age: 50 Posts: 459	Perfect!!! Thank you very much musashi5150. But do you know if it is possible to use the CDTV-drive in a standard PC or Amiga-Tower? Maybe that would be an option to speed up this procedure.

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