Do you like or dislike Cloanto/Amiga Forever?

[grond]

Originally Posted by LongLifeA1200

Support how exactly? Sure wasn't with Euros. What's fair about it?

I think that it's enough if *Toni Wilen* thinks it is fair.

All standard components of a standard Linux distribution have always been available for free, yet some people chose to pay for DVDs with the software on it. Why do you care about *their* money? Some people have enough money to not care about configuring the software they want themselves. The price for AF is worth less to them than spending precious time searching for the stuff on the internet or ripping ROMs from their aging hardware stowed away in some attic.

[daxb]

Originally Posted by SpeedGeek

Now you are splitting hairs, incompatibility resulting from a bug or a removed function has the same end results. "Not Advisable" WTF? It was advised by Commodore in OS 2.0-3.1 and by H&P in OS 3.5-3.9.

You are complete on the troll road. Don't you notice it yourself? "cpu fastrom" was never working or only with some luck (broken by design) and is obsolete since at least 20 years. There are far better solutions out there.
A bug results in incompatibility until the bug is fixed. If it won't fixed you can argue for incompatible. Look at 3.X that is what you can call incompatible.

[SpeedGeek]

Originally Posted by daxb

You are complete on the troll road. Don't you notice it yourself? "cpu fastrom" was never working or only with some luck (broken by design) and is obsolete since at least 20 years. There are far better solutions out there.
A bug results in incompatibility until the bug is fixed. If it won't fixed you can argue for incompatible. Look at 3.X that is what you can call incompatible.

You are complete on the idiot road. CPU FASTROM was never intended to work with all CPUs. It was only intended to work with 68020/030 MMU systems and it worked VERY well with those systems (not at all with luck).

OS 3.1.4 was released on Sept. 2018 and remains incompatible UNTIL the bug fix is completed and released. It does NOT become compatible simply because a bug fix is planned for a future release.

[daxb]

Originally Posted by SpeedGeek

You are complete on the idiot road. CPU FASTROM was never intended to work with all CPUs. It was only intended to work with 68020/030 MMU systems and it worked VERY well with those systems (not at all with luck).

The docs (Amiga DOS book) say that fastrom needs a CPU with MMU. I do not know if 020 with MMU exists but 030/040/060 do. If no 020 with MMU are/were in use, the only CPU is 030. So you can say that fastrom worked well on 030. So, because the docs doesn't tell you really need to try to see if it will work or not.

OS 3.1.4 was released on Sept. 2018 and remains incompatible UNTIL the bug fix is completed and released. It does NOT become compatible simply because a bug fix is planned for a future release.

But when the bugfix release is out you can say it is compatible or would you still say the opposite?

[SpeedGeek]

Originally Posted by daxb

The docs (Amiga DOS book) say that fastrom needs a CPU with MMU. I do not know if 020 with MMU exists but 030/040/060 do. If no 020 with MMU are/were in use, the only CPU is 030. So you can say that fastrom worked well on 030. So, because the docs doesn't tell you really need to try to see if it will work or not.

My AmigaDOS 2.0 reference book reads:

"CPU allows you to adjust various options of the microprocessor installed in your Amiga. CPU will also show the processor and options that are currently enabled.

NOTE: Many options only work with certain members of the 680X0 processor family."

The primary 020 with MMU system example was the Commodore A2620 because most 3rd party accelerators didn't support the MMU:

http://amiga.resource.cx/exp/a2620

Originally Posted by daxb

But when the bugfix release is out you can say it is compatible or would you still say the opposite?

Nothing I have said here would suggest I would say the opposite (when the bug fix is released). But please keep I mind I won't be able to verify this myself. So, I think I will wait until kolla is jumping with joy!

[malko]

Could we please return on topic.
AmigaOS 3.1.4 bug reporting & discussion is on another thread.

[daxb]

Originally Posted by SpeedGeek

My AmigaDOS 2.0 reference book reads:

NOTE: Many options only work with certain members of the 680X0 processor family."

I have Amiga DOS 3.1 here. I don't know if it differs to 2.0 in this case (CPU description) but the paragraph starts with this sentence and then refers to instruction cache and data cache. We know that 680x0 have different caches.

[LongLifeA1200]

Originally Posted by grond

I think that it's enough if *Toni Wilen* thinks it is fair.

Makes me think there should be a at the end of that, but you said "if" and I'm not privy, either, to the details of any arrangement Cloanto may have with developers such as Toni.

Originally Posted by grond

The price for AF is worth less to them than spending precious time searching for the stuff on the internet or ripping ROMs from their aging hardware stowed away in some attic.

The emulators and Kickstart ROM files were around before Amiga Forever. Something worth keeping in perspective.

[swinkamor12]

Cloanto can prove goodwill by making Amiga Os 3.1 Open Source.
Amiga Os 3.1 sources ar easy to find on net. Put them on LGPL on github.

[gulliver]

Originally Posted by swinkamor12

Cloanto can prove goodwill by making Amiga Os 3.1 Open Source.
Amiga Os 3.1 sources ar easy to find on net. Put them on LGPL on github.

Those sources are in a very pitifull state:

1. Some components are missing.
2. A compiler required is no longer available.
3. The building scripts are severely broken.
4. It contains material which is "no mans land" from a legal standpoint, like the V42 components which were done post Commodore bankruptcy.

It could be good as a learning experience, and could be used to rebuild some specific components, but is far from complete. It is a leftover mess.

Cloanto could right now release all AmigaOS versions, both in source and binary/executable form, prior to, and including 1.2 without any legal risk, as they are not part of the lawsuit. Why haven't they?

[Minuous]

As I understand it, Hyperion has an exclusive licence to 1.0-1.2 as well as 1.3+ (as the Settlement Agreement covers all versions of AmigaOS).

[gulliver]

Originally Posted by Minuous

As I understand it, Hyperion has an exclusive licence to 1.0-1.2 as well as 1.3+ (as the Settlement Agreement covers all versions of AmigaOS).

Are you sure?

I thought I read in the agreement that 3.1 and derivates from it.

[Megol]

Originally Posted by LongLifeA1200

Makes me think there should be a at the end of that, but you said "if" and I'm not privy, either, to the details of any arrangement Cloanto may have with developers such as Toni.

The emulators and Kickstart ROM files were around before Amiga Forever. Something worth keeping in perspective.

You may not like it but Amiga ROMs and OS software are still copyrighted software that you have no legal right to distribute and others have no legal right to download (but that's more of a gray area).

[Gorf]

Setback for Cloanto and small win for Hyperion:
Hyperion successfully prevents Cloanto from registering "workbench" trademark in the EU.
https://amiga-news.de/files/hyperion...rkbench_EU.pdf

Reason for that decision was simply that Hyperion registered 17 days earlier.

Cloanto can appeal against this decision.

Cloanto keeps "workbench" in USA.

[number6]

Originally Posted by Gorf

Setback for Cloanto and small win for Hyperion:
Hyperion successfully prevents Cloanto from registering "workbench" trademark in the EU.
https://amiga-news.de/files/hyperion...rkbench_EU.pdf

Reason for that decision was simply that Hyperion registered 17 days earlier.

Cloanto can appeal against this decision.

Cloanto keeps "workbench" in USA.

I see this more as EUIPO "cleanup" of old business. Here's why:

Hyperion filed for workbench and amigaforever with EUIPO.
Cloanto filed objections to those 2 filings.
Cloanto later withdrew those 2 objections of their own accord.
Hyperion's filings were then registered for both workbench and amigaforever.

all this is covered within and rather old news

You can see more examples of delays in EUIPO closing out filings.
Example:The Amiga Inc. renewal for "Amiga" and "Powered by Amiga" from January 2018 still exist. As does the Cloanto filing for Amiga, for which one objection still remains on the books. As does an appeal by Hyperion over a rejected opposition to Drews, also for Amiga.
Considering that (link above) the thread illustrates that the transfer already took place to C-A Acquisitions Corporation, you have to realize the 2 other filings will also have to be disposed of/finalized as well.

#6

[ReadOnlyCat]

To be truly objective and useful this post should have the following entries as well:

• I like their products, that does not mean I like them (or not like them).
• It is not a matter of liking but a matter of assessing facts rationally.

And allow multiple choices.

Otherwise you are just stirring the anger pot without providing any reason why this is a good thing (which it is not).

[LongLifeA1200]

Originally Posted by Megol

You may not like it but Amiga ROMs and OS software are still copyrighted software that you have no legal right to distribute and others have no legal right to download (but that's more of a gray area).

Cloanto didn't make them available. Others did. Then Cloanto had an epiphany and decided to make money from nothing.

I think a lot of people have been fooled into thinking that Cloanto are responsible for bringing emulation, Kickstart ROMs and Workbench to the modern computer.

[kolla]

Originally Posted by LongLifeA1200

I think a lot of people have been fooled into thinking that Cloanto are responsible for bringing emulation, Kickstart ROMs and Workbench to the modern computer.

I think a lot of people, you included, prefer to rewrite history to fit your view. Before Cloanto worked out the deal in which they were granted rights to distribute Amiga kickstarts and OS, emulating the Amiga was a controversial matter and legal gray zone, where you only had "right" to the kickstart and OS of your real Amiga. Cloanto provided a path to legally obtain kickstarts and OS even for those who didn't have an Amiga. Having this option to point at, also took away pressure from UAE developers who had been in heat from people who also saw emulation as "illegal".

I never liked Cloanto's Amiga software much, and though I did buy AmigaForever at one point, I only did it for "the extras". But I do recognize what Cloanto has done for the platform, and their long involvement.

I guess that the main motivation for rewriting the entire printer system in OS 3.1.4, was to get rid of Cloanto code that is there in 3.1.

Well, 3.1.4 still ships with plenty of components that have not been updated and hence are not owned by Hyperion, but instead now rightfully owned by Cloanto.

[LongLifeA1200]

Originally Posted by kolla

I think a lot of people, you included, prefer to rewrite history to fit your view.

Cloanto's own admission regarding Kickstart ROMs, Workbench and emulators being available before Amiga Forever.

Ever think about what you're really supporting? A company with not enough capital (nor incentive) to do much with the IP.

Originally Posted by kolla

Having this option to point at, also took away pressure from UAE developers who had been in heat from people who also saw emulation as "illegal".

What people? Cloanto a.k.a. Amiga Inc.?

Originally Posted by kolla

But I do recognize what Cloanto has done for the platform, and their long involvement.

And what might that be?

[kolla]

Originally Posted by LongLifeA1200

Cloanto's own admission regarding Kickstart ROMs, Workbench and emulators being available before Amiga Forever.

Available from whom?

Ever think about what you're really supporting? A company with not enough capital (nor incentive) to do much with the IP.

As I wrote, I never "supported" them much to begin with, I have little or no need for their software. But... You do realize how utterly lame this statement of yours is? Amiga OS was not "their IP" until quite recently, it was Amiga Inc.

What people?

Dumbasses online, such as yourself, who were screaming for blood as they saw their beloved Amiga OS running ontop of other systems, including that evil incarnated one by anti-christ Bill Gates.

Cloanto

No, not at all. On the contrary, Cloanto was contributing _for_ the right of emulators to exist, against the mentioned dumbasses.

a.k.a. Amiga Inc.?

You were not born, or something? It was not Amiga Inc back then, it was Amiga Technologies and Amiga International... Petro, Peter Kittel etc. And they had nothing to do with Cloanto other than having an agreement, a contract, regarding distribution of AmigaOS to be used with emulators.

People hassle Cloanto for "encrypting" the kickstarts, but that was something they were pushed to do by the rights holders at the time, and not something they came up with all by themselves.

And what might that be?

Providing legal means of obtaining Amiga kickstarts and OS at very reasonable prices for more than 2 decades, contributing to development by contracting UAE developers, hosting and sponsoring UAE developer meetings, getting hold of Amiga hardware for developers to test and improve their emulation code against, providing the P96 support that was close to being abandoned at one point...