Port Wolfenstein on Amiga 500 / 1000 OCS

[Amiga1992]

Originally Posted by LongLifeA1200

This would be the 3rd time I've seen a thread get derailed on this forum since I've joined a short time ago. Now I'm beginning to understand why people prefer to lurk instead.

Threads get derailed when people who do not know the slightest thing about the Amiga's technology come to the Coders sub-forum and demand a game to be ported based on just fanatism. This is the OP.

I'll mention it again, this is the CODERS sub-forum. As you can see above there's a bunch of coders talking about ideas related to this topic, which is what should have happened from the beginning. It was nice that the thread took a turn towards REALITY.

I hope the conversation continues that way.

[AJCopland]

Akira, just a heads up but this was moved into the "Retrogaming General Discussion" forum some time ago.

[Amiga1992]

Good call, I'm a royal idiot.
Well as soon as Miggy4eva exited the thread, the conversation turned technical again. So I got confused.
I stand corrected and I exit the thread myself, no need for noise!

[britelite]

Originally Posted by LongLifeA1200

I have already noticed that people are just about ready to give up and that's fine. So forgive me if I want to do a little rallying.

I'm one of the few actually considering coding wolf3d for the A500, and to be honest you are NOT helping in any way. Making demands on how something you're not involved in should look is just making you seem entitled. So your "rallying" is having the effect of making me not want to do anything.

The game needs to be redesigned to function competently.

Go ahead and redesign it then.

[jizmo]

Originally Posted by britelite

Go ahead and redesign it then.

That's easy. No lazy porting, optimise the texture mapping engine and target 1x1 resolution. Don't communicate with anyone bright enough who's actually solved this, for the Atari people will win.

If it runs a little sluggish or doesn't even begin to fit in the memory, just use some blibber and cobber magic in some way I can't even begin to explain.

Really, this has to be the worst thread ever

[nobody]

Some guy comes in front and requests a game then coders go ahead to work 1 year on the project to fulfill his dream. This is not the way things are being made, but on the contrary some coder(s) do something on their free time and then announce it to the community.
All these 7 pages are plain theory and thread is going to explode any time soon, OP dissapeared too.

[Foebane]

Originally Posted by britelite

On A500? Are you kidding?

Well, you may as well give up right now as an A500 does not have VGA colour, so there's an obstacle before you even start.

[britelite]

Originally Posted by Foebane

Well, you may as well give up right now as an A500 does not have VGA colour, so there's an obstacle before you even start.

Right, so why did you even bring up Doom in a thread about Wolf3D on A500? And for that matter, VGA is in no way a requirement for Doom.

[mcgeezer]

The Amiga just wasn't built to handle 3D graphics because it was manufactured in a time when 3D competition wasn't around. Sure, you have games that bend the rules such as SCR, possibly Vaxine or even Encounter on the C64/AXL and great tech demos but it just isn't a machine built for 3D rendering where gaming is concerned.

That said, I admire anyone who would attempt such a feat on an OCS Amiga as I know how hard it would be - not impossible as any CPU will achieve a result but at how many FPS will be the key. I suspect with this "Wolf3d Challenge" about 0.01 FPS.

I may be wrong though.

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by mcgeezer

The Amiga just wasn't built to handle 3D graphics because it was manufactured in a time when 3D competition wasn't around. Sure, you have games that bend the rules such as SCR, possibly Vaxine or even Encounter on the C64/AXL and great tech demos but it just isn't a machine built for 3D rendering where gaming is concerned.

PCs had also no special support for any kind of 3D when Wolf3d, Doom or even Doom 2 arrived.

The first 3d-accelorators (3Dfx Voodoo and PowerVR) came out in 1996 while Wolf3D was released 1992!

back than it was only matter of faster CPUs and chunky 8-bit pixels.
Mistakes Commodore could have easily avoided in the AGA-line.

[Shatterhand]

Originally Posted by Akira

Well as soon as Miggy4eva exited the thread, the conversation turned technical again. So I got confused.

I must admit I've been looking at this thread and I was really holding myself to say something like "Funny how when the talk became really technical, the OP just dissapeared from the thread"

I'll go back to just watch the thread developing

[Foebane]

Originally Posted by britelite

Right, so why did you even bring up Doom in a thread about Wolf3D on A500? And for that matter, VGA is in no way a requirement for Doom.

1. I didn't realise it was for OCS, missed the A500 in the thread title
2. I'm just stating my preference for the Doom franchise as an FPS over the Wolf franchise, which I've never liked.
3. I think VGA is a requirement, since all the source ports of Doom I've seen are based on 256-colour graphics, because of the way Carmack programmed the CLUTs for the light-diminishing, and so forth. I haven't once seen a source port that did away with those entirely in favour of 24-bit smoothness, but I think that would require a massive rewrite of the core Doom code, which I think is against the T&C's. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[nobody]

Originally Posted by Miggy4eva

Examples of Wolfenstein 3d and other things of interest running on platforms comparable to A500

1. Thanks LongLifeA1200. Wolfenstein running on an 8-bit 8088 at 4.77mhz. Skip to 4:00 [ Show youtube player ]
2. Thanks LongLifeA1200. Wolfenstein running on 286 at 10mhz. Skip to 0:40 [ Show youtube player ]
3. Wolfenstein running on 8-bit Apple iiGS. CPU is 8 bit 65816, accelerated to 10mhz. Skip to 1:25 for fullscreen. 5:38 for window decrease. [ Show youtube player ]
4. Wolfenstein running on C64. Skip to 1:15. [ Show youtube player ]
5. Wolfenstein running on Megadrive and SNES. [ Show youtube player ]
6. Wolfenstein running on Gameboy Colour. Skip to 0:30. [ Show youtube player ]
7. Wolfenstein running on Atari ST. Framerate is quite terrible, resolution is 2x2 pixel doubled. Skip to 0:55. [ Show youtube player ]
   
   

Things not mentioned:
Apple 2gs, the overclocked 65816 is 16bit, and port was made with help from 3DO Wolfenstein programmer which is an expert on the matter.
There is no info how much memory the Apple has, as it can go up to 8MB.

Gameboy color uses a cartridge with an extra CPU.

SNES uses a cartridge with an extra chip if i am not mistaken.

Atari ST uses 2MB extra memory.

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by Foebane

1. I didn't realise it was for OCS, missed the A500 in the thread title
3. I think VGA is a requirement, since all the source ports of Doom I've seen are based on 256-colour graphics...
Correct me if I'm wrong.

Wrong.

ADoom runs on AGA and even ESC, so no VGA is required. But Doom is offtopic!

Back to the topic: there is already a ESC Version on Aminet
AmiWolf_ECS
And that was already mentioned in this thread.

But of course it is not playable on a plain A500. And that’s what this whole thread is about: how low can the bar be set for hardware requirements.

[Foebane]

When I'm talking about VGA, I mean 256 colours, just like AGA. I always thought Carmack wanted Wolf3D to use VGA for the first time in id Software history. I know his previous FPS games were CGA, then EGA, which an A500 could easily duplicate.

Wolf3D should be possible on an A500, even if the graphics were 2x2 pixels instead of 1x1, and with just 16 colours as well. If the C64 can do a rough approximation of Wolf3D, then the Amiga sure can. But it's doubtful it would ever look as good as on the PC.

Sound should be no issue, that's one area the Amiga could sound better at.

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by Foebane

When I'm talking about VGA, I mean 256 colours, just like AGA. I always thought Carmack wanted Wolf3D to use VGA for the first time in id Software history. I know his previous FPS games were CGA, then EGA, which an A500 could easily duplicate.

Please don‘t mix up PC-GFX-Modes with Amiga-modes. They have almost nothing in common, even if some might end up having the same amount of colors...
The terms VGA or EGA are very misleading and no: the Amiga chipset can not duplicate one of these!

Wolf3D should be possible on an A500, even if the graphics were 2x2 pixels instead of 1x1, and with just 16 colours as well. If the C64 can do a rough approximation of Wolf3D, then the Amiga sure can. But it's doubtful it would ever look as good as on the PC.

All that still does not solve the RAM demands and the speed.
All that was already mentioned in this thread.

[LongLifeA1200]

Originally Posted by britelite

Go ahead and redesign it then.

Thank you for giving me permission.

Originally Posted by britelite

I'm one of the few actually considering coding wolf3d for the A500, and to be honest you are NOT helping in any way. Making demands on how something you're not involved in should look is just making you seem entitled. So your "rallying" is having the effect of making me not want to do anything.

You're now blaming me for your negative attitude? I'm sure any excuse to quit would have suited.

...
All these 7 pages are plain theory and thread is going to explode any time soon, OP dissapeared too.

The thread never stood a chance with so much negativity. Of course, the OP left. The OP was being mocked. It's a disgraceful way to treat a guest that is a fan of the computer platform.

The OP had the right enthusiasm. It didn't matter if the request was technically possible or not. There are other things at play here that is not obvious. The forum needs to allow a fair bit of latitude for overenthusiastic fans and of those that do not have to temperament to gently let down a fan's expectations simply allow a little time for the thread to go quiet on its own. Negativity or mockery costs nothing to produce but other peoples' enthusiasm pays a high price for it. Next time a member is seen to be overenthusiastic instead think about redirecting that enthusiasm or cultivating it productively.

Since this thread can be the basis for serving a purpose beyond itself - an open mind should be kept and no more attempts to derail or have the thread locked be made.

A considerable amount time will need to pass before this thread gets a substantial update.

[britelite]

Originally Posted by LongLifeA1200

Thank you for giving me permission.

Not giving permission, but rather stating that how about actually doing something yourself, rather than making demands.

You're now blaming me for your negative attitude?

No, I'm saying you should have a good look on how you present yourself. Especially if you have nothing concrete to contribute to the topic. I know I might seem negative to someone like you or the OP, as I have a tendency to state facts rather than let people go on with their deluded daydreams.

I'm sure any excuse to quit would have suited.

I never said I quit, but that if I do something it's DESPITE people like yourself rather than because.

The thread never stood a chance with so much negativity.

This thread was actually going in the right direction with people discussing real concrete ideas. That is until you came along with your entitled attitude.

The OP had the right enthusiasm. It didn't matter if the request was technically possible or not.

Overenthusiasm gets really tiring, especially if the person ranting isn't listening to reason and just goes on and on and on with his ramblings.

[nobody]

This thread should be locked the moment it was stated that Geoff Drummond's "Stunt car racer" is a lazy port and all participants get a weekly ban and 1 month only for the SCR statement.

[britelite]

Originally Posted by nobody

This thread should be locked the moment it was stated that Geoff Drummond's "Stunt car racer" is a lazy port and all participants get a weekly ban and 1 month only for the SCR statement.

Now this is something I can wholeheartedly agree with