Problematic AGA demos.

[amilo3438]

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

Nothing has changed since last time I replied with similar reply

Hmm, that is not quite true as US-YulBrynnerwSkinhIt demo seems to run fine in tested 3.4.1 betas !

Btw. I used the Sysinfo in order to see how much difference is between a real A1200 values in comparison to quickstart A1200, and for this case I used/watched only the "Dhrystone" value, other values was not much important.
And what I found is that the cases 2 and 3 are pretty close to a real A1200 and quickstart is pretty far. I hoped that this could helped to improve the quickstart (read slow down) but I was maybe wrong. Anyway, I am going to use this instead of quickstart as the testing shows that works fine. (long story short)

Trying to make 020/030 to work cycle-exact is close to impossible task IMHO! (it is just not possible without knowing what happens inside)
What is possible now is to observe whats happening "outside" and then according to findings adapt the emulated cpu to run the most possible programs. (in this case some still problematic demos left)
I was tired to wait when it will happen, so I decided to try something by playing with the winuae and (by chance) found cases 2 and 3. (and I am pretty satisfied with these already)

You can still have two types configurations for A1200: one that strive for cycle-exact accuracy and one that is adapted to max demos work fine !

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

It may be possible to get some demo working by tweaking CPU speeds but it does not improve anything.

Not only to get some demo working, it is possible to get a lots of "problematic" demos working by tweaking CPU speed what improves emu compatibility. (as the test showed)

P.s.
The Sysinfo picture from a real plain A1200 used in the test for comparison -> http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=998559&postcount=38

[Seiya]

@amilo3438
however, some anomalies you notice, is because cpu at default is too fast
i notice this inconvenient also in real Amiga with fast processor like 68040. Some demos made only for A1200 run very fast and so distorted.
maybe it is not only a problem of cpu..

[Seiya]

i'd like to know if in WinUAE could be implemented a code like this (relative to cpu timing):

https://bitbucket.org/pcem_emulator/...u.c?at=default

[vagrant]

Peanut by Efreet (4k intro)
http://janeway.exotica.org.uk/release.php?id=1343

Flashing background during ball scene, I tested 020/030 quickstarts, with & without CE.
Also found this msg from blueberry on pouet back in 2013:

The jumping ball scene still bugs in WinUAE (flashing background) because of incorrect emulation of float-to-int conversion of NaN. Should send a fix to Toni one of these days

[Mclane]

Excuse me if I ask a question without reading the whole of this great thread..

Read a few pages back the thread seems stuck on getting demo's working on faster settings than perhaps the target machine was meant to be, is it not better to make sure the demo works as planned on the target machine using as near to the exact same running conditions ie CPU speed etc as would the real machine be and then if it works on higher spec its a bonus.

I appreciate there are some very high spec machines out there with demo's written for them but Toni has always been clear about the support of higher end machines and the issues around them being worked out slowly.

Amilo and Toni have done some amazing testing and fixing on all the standard Amiga models but I think I'm seeing an over clocking trend?

Should it still not be 'as per the real hardware first and then the exotic'?

Apologies if I've entered the thread and missed a point...Keep up the wonderful work people...And thanks

[Foebane]

Originally Posted by Mclane

Read a few pages back the thread seems stuck on getting demo's working on faster settings than perhaps the target machine was meant to be, is it not better to make sure the demo works as planned on the target machine using as near to the exact same running conditions ie CPU speed etc as would the real machine be and then if it works on higher spec its a bonus.

I agree, so I use the Quickstart configurations for the A500/A600/A1200, and it generally solves most problems as most demos were intended for those machines anyway.

I appreciate there are some very high spec machines out there with demo's written for them but Toni has always been clear about the support of higher end machines and the issues around them being worked out slowly.

I've seen many high-end demos on WinUAE, and it is tricky because some can be too fast with "Fastest Possible" and JIT also causes a headache, as some demos work with it and some don't, and JIT has always been an emulation issue anyway. I find that using "uae-configuration" in WB and setting up a few keys to turn JIT on and off and adjust CPU speed throttle on-the-fly helps in that regard - it certainly saves having to write a list of what demos need what, and so forth.

Amilo and Toni have done some amazing testing and fixing on all the standard Amiga models but I think I'm seeing an over clocking trend?

Demos sometimes look better in higher framerates, like running an A500 demo on an A1200, so perhaps users seek more speed yet retaining stability?

[Mclane]

Originally Posted by Foebane

Demos sometimes look better in higher framerates, like running an A500 demo on an A1200, so perhaps users seek more speed yet retaining stability?

That's a bit 'have your cake and eat it too' and breaks the ideal of a machine running at the same specs as real hardware would, for me a 1200 with a 68030 should be emulated at the speed that machine and card would work. As seen it generates bug reports in WinUAE that are a bit disingenuous as its pushing WinUAE to do stuff that the machine didn't do in real life and the program running on it having false expectations that set up would not have had.

Trust me, I love the idea of seeing stuff running smoother, when I had my real 1200 and Viper(?) 68030 card the first thing I put on was FA 18 Interceptor and Frontier to see the speed and smoothness of the graphics but I feel there needs to be at some point a default list of machines and additional cards pre set up to match spec in the wild so bug reporting is narrowed down a load. Obviously Toni could / would have clear flags to should it was an altered machine.

I would imagine that this is the plan anyway and its simply down to the nailing down the snaggy aspects..

[amilo3438]

A1200 Quickstart (Basic), "Freezers-Lech" demo problem!

If "Filter Settings" = "none" and "Line mode" = "Double" -> drastic slowdown just after "buildings" part" is finished!
But if "Filter Settings" = "Null filter" and "Line mode" = "Double" -> seems fine
Or, if "Filter Settings" = "none" and "Line mode" = "Scanlines" -> seems fine

Fine in WinUAE 2.8.0 but problematic from WinUAE 2.8.1 (tested with attached config)!

[DamienD]

Why are you using such an ancient version of WinUAE?

Surely you should be testing with v3.5.0 to see if the issue is still present...

[Toni Wilen]

Filter=none is direct write to VRAM surface/texture. Do not use unless you have some really old DirectDraw-only display card.

[amilo3438]

Originally Posted by DamienD

Why are you using such an ancient version of WinUAE?

Surely you should be testing with v3.5.0 to see if the issue is still present...

Seems it happens in all versions after 2.8.0!

Now, I am not sure is it happens because of my old PC laptop old drivers or is it something else, but CPU usage goes till 1000% after "Building" part finish.

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

Filter=none is direct write to VRAM surface/texture. Do not use unless you have some really old DirectDraw-only display card.

My card is NVIDIA GeForce Go 6800!
Strange that it works fine in 2.8.0. and problematic in 2.8.1! (in DirectDraw or D3D)

EDIT:
As mentioned in post #128; no problem when "Filter Settings" = "none" if "Line mode" = "Scanlines", but only problem if "Line mode" = "Double"!
(just tested: fine also if Line modes = "Single", "Double, fields" or "Double, fields+"!)

[DamienD]

Originally Posted by amilo3438

Seems it happens in all versions after 2.8.0!
Now, I am not sure is it happens because of my old PC laptop old drivers or is it something else, but CPU usage goes till 1000% after "Building" part finish.

If my memory serves me correctly I believe you are using a very old laptop with Windows XP on it?

...surely it's time to get a new computer and then start testing with the latest version of WinUAE.

It probably isn't helpful if you are providing bug reports using old ancient versions and with 10+ year old hardware...

[amilo3438]

Originally Posted by DamienD

If my memory serves me correctly I believe you are using a very old laptop with Windows XP on it?

...surely it's time to get a new computer and then start testing with the latest version of WinUAE.

It probably isn't helpful if you are providing bug reports using old ancient versions and with 10+ year old hardware...

Yes, it old but still usable, and it's working fine!

To get a new laptop just for testing latest version of WinUAE ? (joke, right?)
(Unless someone ready to donate one specially for this purpose.)

[DamienD]

Originally Posted by amilo3438

Yes, it old but still usable, and it's working fine!

I would say clearly not!

Originally Posted by amilo3438

To get a new laptop just for testing latest version of WinUAE ? (joke, right?)
(Unless someone ready to donate one specially for this purpose.)

No joke, not just for WinUAE but everything... I bet other emulators like MAME also don't run very well on 10+ year old hardware with XP...

Imagine going to the MAME Devs with bug reports; I guarantee you they would say "get a more modern laptop!".

Toni's just too polite to say this to you and drop support for Windows XP.

[amilo3438]

Well, unless you know how to adjust (read optimize) to make them work acceptable on old hardware.
(Usually default settings, even on WinUAE, is not adjusted for old hardware requirements.)

PS. I think you agree that this discussion does not belong to this topic, so please delete or move it somewhere else. (Thx)

Btw. While it still work on WinXP I guess its supported.

[DamienD]

Last thing I'll say on the matter...

You are completely missing the point here and are probably providing bogus bug reports by:

a) Using an old, very slow laptop that's not up to the specs required for intensive Amiga demos and stuff.
b) Using an ancient version of WinUAE.
c) Using Windows XP; which is no longer supported by Microsoft, therefore nobody bothers writing new drivers / stuff.

You would probably find that these bugs would not exist if you were to use:

a) A modern computer / laptop with enough grunt (and we are not talking top of the range here).
b) The latest WinUAE.

How difficult is the above to understand?

I have an old ThinkPad T42 laptop with Windows XP installed sitting in my cupboard. There's no way I'd be using this to test / provide bug reports for anything...

[amilo3438]

We already have similar discussion but on other topic!

Hope you didnt forget Mission Elevator sound problem -> http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=85023&page=4

Note: That problem was noticed/find on my old hardware too!

[DamienD]

<sigh>

Mission Elevator; what's that got to do with it?!? ...running old 1987, OCS games on crappy hardware is no comparison to running intensive AGA demos really... it is well known that AGA needs more grunt and especially for a lot of the demos that pushed the hardware back in the day.

I bet you are the only person on EAB that still uses Windows XP as their main machine.

Maybe I should try contacting the Call of Duty authors to let them know that it doesn't run on my laptop and ask them to magically fix instead of upgrading?

Anyway, nothing more to say on the matter and again you're completely missing the point.

[Toni Wilen]

XP is "supported": it runs, with basic options. Everything else is undefined, any new feature may not work.

(And Mission Elevator problem had absolutely nothing to do with PC hardware)

[amilo3438]

One question!

In WinUAE 3.6.0 beta series topic, does this graphics problem happen to other users too or its because of my old hardware? (when tested on WinUAE 3.6.0b1)

http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=1178014&postcount=5

(Or maybe it's time to stop report similar problems as my hardware is too old now.)