PUAE 2.3.0 beta series

[EricG]

Actually WinUAE is really good .. I don't see why people are complaining about it .. those that maintain it do a really brilliant job of it.. I'd say its the standard people should be shooting for .. What I don't like is the current HiTorro/EUAE setup where you have two different apps to do what WinUAE does in one..

[Wicked_Digger]

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

Try sometimes doing both great GUI and keep updating and improving emulation core. Completely alone without no outside help. (and I HATE GUI CODING which actually means GUI is surprisingly good..)

Of course WinUAE is a big step forward, but it is a step made by waist-deep in a quagmire, even though there are a number of excellent road (and not just one). Why was not used, none of the existing high-level frameworks have? It is natural that the GUI development has become a feat.

I have already said in this thread that the problem with the UI is a bad tradition of UAE. And just what needs to be - to make the emulator in a separate thread.
On windows you have the opportunity to do some UI in a separate thread (which was actually done), but on other platforms, it is often impossible in principle.
Can anyone tell me why the main window WinUAE runs in one thread with the emulator? This is because a lot of problems!

Originally Posted by chiark

Serious suggestion: design a GUI, irrespective of toolkit.

This is only true if you have an infinitely long time to work on the project
The framework should deliver you from the beaten path - not to think about size and location of controls, their form and actions, and on more useful things - design, usability and so on.

[Toni Wilen]

Technically (under the hood) WinUAE GUI is quite bad by todays standards. It was original made by Brian King in late 1990 or so and things were very different at that time.. Change from tabbed to treeview style was made by me in 2004 but that was only simple cosmetic change, it is still based on original code..

Six years ago I didn't want to learn yet another Windows-only GUI system and I still don't (no point), also most cross-platform packages were too crappy or missing basic features implemented in Windows until recently. Obviously I am not going to select GUI package by listening to Linux or Apple fanboys.

(But why should I even try defending myself after recent comments?)

[Toni Wilen]

Originally Posted by Wicked_Digger

Can anyone tell me why the main window WinUAE runs in one thread with the emulator? This is because a lot of problems!

Can't you simple ask and explain why it causes "lot of problems" instead of always demanding something? This is getting annoying..

Because it has always done it. Because I don't see any advantages except GUI and emulation can run at the same time and in my opinion it is pointless feature.

What about all the required critical sections/semaphores or IPC required to handle on the fly configuration changes..

I'll think about it _IF_ you have good enough reason but do not hold your breath, first you should change your posting style.

[Wicked_Digger]

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

(But why should I even try defending myself after recent comments?)

Sorry if hurt your feelings!
We're talking about what to do next with the revived project. I suggest not to pull the stale tradition. At this point we can use a powerful cross-platform frameworks, not only can but must.
As I have said to me enough opportunities PUAE now. I quickly made a minimal UI and invite all to its expansion. Now do it easy and fun
For me, more important goal is a powerful debugger. The ideal would be to make an adapter to the existing debuggers, but unfortunately I could not find the open cross-platform projects that were not strictly focused on the x86 architecture.

[Wicked_Digger]

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

Can't you simple ask and explain why it causes "lot of problems" instead of always demanding something? This is getting annoying..

Do not delve into the criticisms, I do not think it is productive.

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

Because it has always done it. Because I don't see any advantages except GUI and emulation can run at the same time and in my opinion it is pointless feature.

That's why I say it's tradition, I found no serious arguments not to do it. For me the only reason is the ability to have a complete UI in the main window without any restrictions.

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

What about all the required critical sections/semaphores or IPC required to handle on the fly configuration changes..

Doing this would be really strange, changing the processor on the fly is enchanting!

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

I'll think about it _IF_ you have good enough reason but do not hold your breath, first you should change your posting style.

I did not ask you ... I'm okay with the breath and hands for programming

[SyX]

First of all Wicked_Digger, there is not a silver bullet, and least in cross-platform gui framework. I use Linux since my A1200 died at the end of the 90s, and i'm programming professionally multiplatform applications in python + qt and only can said that in this platform agnostic enviroment, i have a lot of "fixes" platform dependent for the crossplatform gui. Frankly, this situation is plain ridiculous in 2010... nothing can beat ncurses

And i'm not the only person that think similar. Así que menos lobos, ¡¡¡caperucita!!!

Second of all, the Amiga World always has been a meritocracy, if you can make better, go on... and of course, it's much better try to make suggestions and help to make them possible, that tell somebody what they must do.

More smiles, my friend

[chiark]

WD, I take it you know Toni is maintaining WinUAE and has just released 2.3, so it's really not at all stale...

Also, I think it's worth stating why non-blocking GUI is so important. To me, it's not an issue as the majority of changes possible will mandate a restart of emulation? Perhaps I'm just used to it.

Finally, if we want to get a better GUI it needs to be designed or at least have ground rules put in place. I always start from scenarios, stories or situations when doing GUI (or any) design... It somewhat seems to be best practice?

What do people want an emulator GUI to do?

[Toni Wilen]

Exactly, real world isn't that simple as you think and also do not just think about your point of view..

You are doing something from (more or less) scratch, no one really cares if
first few versions are basic or broken. It is still better than previous attempts.

If _I_ do the same, everyone starts complaining instantly because previous version was working, but new one can't do that and that and it sucks now (from users point of view). Welcome to the real world.

[antonvaltaz]

Although this is now getting off-topic it's probably a good discussion to have (perhaps mods could separate it into a different thread)... the thing is it's much easier to criticise than it is to do something productive and what Toni has achieved since taking on WinUAE is nothing short of incredible.

Nevertheless I have read many comments from many emulation sites, blogs etc that complain that getting WinUAE up-and-running for the average user is overly difficult. To my mind this is probably one of the main reasons for Amiga Forever's success, i.e. it makes the basics very simple with an attractive GUI. But the irony of course is that it relies on WinUAE's awesome backend.

Yes WinUAE's GUI does have a certain logic to it once you understand it but you have to 'learn' it (many selection boxes etc are not clearly labelled, for example), and many less technical folk don't have the patience for that... remember one of the attractions of the Amiga for many was that it was simple to get up and running very quickly.

The Quickstart modes go someway there but not quite... Toni, why are you so opposed to 'basic' and 'advanced' modes, is that because it is a lot of work to implement (I'm not a programmer so I wouldn't know) or is it because you personally don't like them?

[Toni Wilen]

Originally Posted by antonvaltaz

The Quickstart modes go someway there but not quite... Toni, why are you so opposed to 'basic' and 'advanced' modes, is that because it is a lot of work to implement (I'm not a programmer so I wouldn't know) or is it because you personally don't like them?

Simple: either you should know what to do or you use frontend like AF that is made to be user friendly.

Obviously I do not use or want to use basic mode: I don't want to do it and especially support it. It would get out of date really soon and would become useless.

EDIT: also choice between option belonging to "basic" or "advanced" is in the eye of the beholder. And finally everyone would still use "advanced" mode because "real users" always use advanced mode.. (real world is ugly)

[TCD]

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

EDIT: also choice between option belonging to "basic" or "advanced" is in the eye of the beholder. And finally everyone would still use "advanced" mode because "real users" always use advanced mode.. (real world is ugly)

Indeed. I would hate to click through various menus to get to one specific option. A lot of apps are like that and I refuse to accept that 'hiding' options in some stack of menus + windows is a good GUI design choice. I think quickstart is a really good way to deal with it.

[Arnie]

I have found all emulators require some kind of learning curve to use effectively. WinUAE, to me, is the easiest by far.

BTW, great work Toni, don't let the moaners grind you down.

[Wicked_Digger]

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

Exactly, real world isn't that simple as you think and also do not just think about your point of view..

I'm a developer with more than 10 years experience and naturally very aware of the real world (right now apart from the puzzling problem associated with a new gift from Microsoft IE9 our more than 3 millionth audience of users, and this is the real world in the most severe form of it )

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

You are doing something from (more or less) scratch, no one really cares if
first few versions are basic or broken. It is still better than previous attempts.

And this is wonderful!

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

If _I_ do the same, everyone starts complaining instantly because previous version was working, but new one can't do that and that and it sucks now (from users point of view). Welcome to the real world.

It is unclear why, but you take the debate at the expense of WinUAE and your person. It's about the project for Linux-based systems, and currently it is not build on Windows at all. If ever PUAE earn on Windows (so that we can easily move the Qt-based UI as well), then we can talk about any competition or anything similar, yet until this far.

[Wicked_Digger]

Originally Posted by Lionheart

First of all Wicked_Digger, there is not a silver bullet, and least in cross-platform gui framework. I use Linux since my A1200 died at the end of the 90s, and i'm programming professionally multiplatform applications in python + qt and only can said that in this platform agnostic enviroment, i have a lot of "fixes" platform dependent for the crossplatform gui. Frankly, this situation is plain ridiculous in 2010... nothing can beat ncurses

My main work is related to a project submitted on a 3-desktop and 3-mobile platforms, I understand what you are saying.

Originally Posted by Lionheart

Second of all, the Amiga World always has been a meritocracy, if you can make better, go on... and of course, it's much better try to make suggestions and help to make them possible, that tell somebody what they must do.

I need a more advanced GUI on MacOS, and I'm doing it (look in the Zone). A discussion with Toni started only from the fact that I (perhaps unnecessarily strict) refused to go on the road in terms of WinUAE GUI.

[chiark]

Originally Posted by Wicked_Digger

It is unclear why, but you take the debate at the expense of WinUAE and your person

Originally Posted by Wicked_Digger

WinUAE GUI is a piece of **** that is not worth discussing

You think it's unclear? I assume you know what Toni's been doing the last few years (amongst other things)?

I am really looking forward to your positive contribution: you seem to have the tools and enthusiasm to do the next big thing on the GUI. You have the breath and the hands, so go for it?

(Please don't forget the Mac world, and if something will also work for Windows then I daresay Toni will hug you. A cross platform UI has been a holy grail for quite some years, so it is definitely a worthwhile thing to spend time on, especially now PUAE is rolling WinUAE improvements into EUAE)

[Wicked_Digger]

It's a piece of cake off course! And what did you think?

[Toni Wilen]

Originally Posted by Wicked_Digger

I need a more advanced GUI on MacOS, and I'm doing it (look in the Zone). A discussion with Toni started only from the fact that I (perhaps unnecessarily strict) refused to go on the road in terms of WinUAE GUI.

Where did I say I am forcing others to use WinUAE GUI _CODE_? No one should do it, it is Windows-only, ugly code, bad code, low level API used that no one uses today etc..

GUI style on the other hand is something I am not going to change if/when I decide to switch to some real GUI platform.

GUI is always low priority for me, no one would have cared about WinUAE (including GUI complainst) if I wouldn't done all those internal emulation improvements and new features..

I knew I chose wrongly, I should have worked on the GUI only! Even my crystall ball warned me but I ignored it. Stupid me. After 7 or so years of WinUAE GUI work it would have been the most perfect, the most portable (including C64) GUI EVER!!!!!!!!!!!111!!!1!!!!!!!1

btw, read my much older posts in this thread again..

[SyX]

Originally Posted by Wicked_Digger

A discussion with Toni started only from the fact that I (perhaps unnecessarily strict) refused to go on the road in terms of WinUAE GUI.

Well, it was that, the "unnecessarily strict", when i read your post, it did sound awkard, everybody can have a bad day, but we never can lose our manners... but well, it's the usually problem of the internet media, because that i always use a lot of emoticons in an attempt to lower the gravity of the matters in discussion

Of course, i think that your project of give a modern gui at PUAE in MacOs is really interesting and i am sure not only the Mac will benefit of your work. Come In!!!

[GnoStiC]

winUAE's gui may not be the fanciest but it definitely does the job. i don't think it's fair to call somebody's gui/code **** or criticize a free work of somebody.

i'm with Toni on this one, yes GUI is important, but it's not the most important. like, PUAE is ok with core emulation but still has some issues so i never bothered to work on the GUI when i could spare that free time working on the issues. that's why PUAE gui still sucks and lacks many options

PUAE will eventually have a common GUI for most platforms but so far i'm not quite happy with the stuff i've tested; wxwidgets, qt, sdl, glade etc etc. (btw, on git, the gui-glade folder contains a winUAE gui clone, but i never finished it) (& read http://byuu.org/articles/qt, "The whole point of cross-platform development is write-once, run-anywhere. And Qt fails miserably.")