Why did the CD32 fail?

[saimon69]

Originally Posted by Glen M

I get the feeling time travel has been discovered but Apple beat us to it...

Do you see all those fancy iLisa out there?

[-Acid-]

Originally Posted by Glen M

Speaking of which I hate the way the poor CD32 gets lumped into the 5th generation

This boils my piss everytime I read it. I wonder who the numpties are who decided that it was 5th gen. The Neo Geo CD is classed as 4th gen but Commodore were bankrupt and the CD32 was out of production before the Neo Geo CD was even released....

[Amigajay]

Probably put together by some social labelling 20 year old that locks Wikimedia pages so no one else can edit his made up shit, according to some made up bollox ‘generations are defined by a dominant console in their marketplace’.

So the 4th ‘gen’ started with the PC Engine in 1987 - a console not even released in quite a few countries and includes various but not all machines released upto 1995?! By their own logic the 5th ‘gen’ should have started in 1990 when the SNES launched.

That being bad enough, they have put the 5th ‘gen’ as starting in 1993 with 4 consoles inc the CD32 that certainly didn’t dominate the marketplace.

The whole list is a joke and makes no sense and is clearly made up by a person(s) who weren't even around before the year 2000.

Sadly the internet is full of misinformation and slagfests of machines that deserve more respect, even if a machine wasn’t successful many were inspirations to others that were and they all contributed the amazing gaming scene we had in the 80s-90s.

[d4rk3lf]

Originally Posted by Glen M

A good amiga game for comparison is XTreme racing.

Well, kudos to the team that worked on the game, but XTreme racing is just not enough impressive that could sell CD32. Like you said, it's more like a Mario Kart clone.
I was thinking more on something like Wipeout for the PS1 (and that game did very much helped selling the PS1).
I know that CD32 is not capable of Wipeout clone, but it didn't need to have too many colors, and it could be in native res, and 3D models could be very simple.
Just like I said, 3 or 4 times better then No Second Prize could do the trick.

Yeah.. I know.. it's easy to be general after the battle.... it's just... I don't get how C= thought that they would sell console without any fantastic game to promote it.

Like I said in other thread: You don't buy computer (or console) and then wait for awesome games to be released... you see an awesome game, and then you want to buy a console.

[saimon69]

Originally Posted by d4rk3lf

Well, kudos to the team that worked on the game, but XTreme racing is just not enough impressive that could sell CD32. Like you said, it's more like a Mario Kart clone.

Well, for the time i think a GOOD mario kart clone would have done maybe not miracles but boosted some sales; i cannot see a 020+akiko struggle on doing that, considered that was EXACTLY what c2p was about - and seems to work good on Wing Commander...

[vulture]

That's what I recall from David Pleasance's interviews at the time as well. Had the CD32 US launch happened, Commodore could go on, especially since the UK department was still profitable.

[Glen M]

Originally Posted by d4rk3lf

Well, kudos to the team that worked on the game, but XTreme racing is just not enough impressive that could sell CD32. Like you said, it's more like a Mario Kart clone.
I was thinking more on something like Wipeout for the PS1 (and that game did very much helped selling the PS1).
I know that CD32 is not capable of Wipeout clone, but it didn't need to have too many colors, and it could be in native res, and 3D models could be very simple.
Just like I said, 3 or 4 times better then No Second Prize could do the trick.

Yeah.. I know.. it's easy to be general after the battle.... it's just... I don't get how C= thought that they would sell console without any fantastic game to promote it.

Like I said in other thread: You don't buy computer (or console) and then wait for awesome games to be released... you see an awesome game, and then you want to buy a console.

I could not agree more that any computer or more so console needs that killer game to make it sell. The CD32 game was microcosm that looks fantastic but played like balls.

A basic wipeout clone might just have been possible. Taking guardian for an example with its 3D environment it is fast enough until the screen gets filled with enemies. Using that as a basis a racing game with say 4-6 competitors and a simple track might just work. Take a look at my CD32 vs TF328 vs TF330 video at the guardian section to see just how slow it gets on the stock console. [ Show youtube player ] skip to 5.51

But as I said before the CD console craze of the time was FMV. Sewer Shark was the game that sold the Mega CD and its perhaps a shame that Microcosm wasn't a better game because it looked far better than the Mega CD.

Don't get me wrong I'm a massive fan of the CD32, its by far my favourite Amiga and I'll fight its corner to my last breath but it cannot compete with the playstation, saturn or n64.

[Amigajay]

Originally Posted by vulture

That's what I recall from David Pleasance's interviews at the time as well. Had the CD32 US launch happened, Commodore could go on, especially since the UK department was still profitable.

Well if the US launch happened then the whole court case thing wouldn't have happened in some parallel universe and they paid the original fees to begin with! But in the end the CD32 would have flopped in the US anyway, the CD32 lived off mostly Amiga buyers in Europe, in the US the Amiga gaming market had all but died by 91/92.

Originally Posted by Glen M

But as I said before the CD console craze of the time was FMV. Sewer Shark was the game that sold the Mega CD and its perhaps a shame that Microcosm wasn't a better game because it looked far better than the Mega CD.

Don't get me wrong I'm a massive fan of the CD32, its by far my favourite Amiga and I'll fight its corner to my last breath but it cannot compete with the playstation, saturn or n64.

As much as i hated ‘FMV’ games it was certainly what the CD32 needed, even if the games were total tripe they made people take notice, and it wasn’t until mid 1994 when the CD32 started getting good game reviews in multi-format mags, but of course it was too late by then, the news in April killed it stone dead, but unlike Sega, Nintendo etc who are game publishers too Commodore mainly just makes hardware, they could have done a Fujitsu and paid for some game exclusives, i mean as crap Microcosm is, imagine a western exclusive contract it would at least make people take notice.

The CD32 came out even before the PSX, Saturn or N64 were even rumours, it was never designed to compete with those, heck the N64 was 3 1/2 years off! CD64 would have of course been in direct competition, but thats a different story, but i believe Commodore were going down the wrong route making a console first and computer after, but we all know Commodore would have picked the wrong decision anyway

[Glen M]

Originally Posted by Amigajay

As much as i hated ‘FMV’ games it was certainly what the CD32 needed, even if the games were total tripe they made people take notice, and it wasn’t until mid 1994 when the CD32 started getting good game reviews in multi-format mags, but of course it was too late by then, the news in April killed it stone dead, but unlike Sega, Nintendo etc who are game publishers too Commodore mainly just makes hardware, they could have done a Fujitsu and paid for some game exclusives, i mean as crap Microcosm is, imagine a western exclusive contract it would at least make people take notice.

The CD32 came out even before the PSX, Saturn or N64 were even rumours, it was never designed to compete with those, heck the N64 was 3 1/2 years off! CD64 would have of course been in direct competition, but thats a different story, but i believe Commodore were going down the wrong route making a console first and computer after, but we all know Commodore would have picked the wrong decision anyway

Well the A500 got its exclusive game deal with the batman pack so it could of happened but there isn't any one game on the machine that you could pick out as an exclusive killer title. Maybe Guardian as it was a CD32 exclusive and my favorite game on the console but while its a good game its not a console seller.

Just so we are clear my point of PSX, Saturn, N64 was directed to d4rk3lf and his wish for a wipeout type game on our console.

You also can't really blame commodore for using their existing hardware to build a console around. I know in the same shoes I would of likely done the same thing. Now if AAA had of been introduced in the A1200 rather than AGA then an AAA console might of been a different story but thats a completely different discussion. We got AGA in the A1200 so thats what the CD32 is based on.

[d4rk3lf]

Originally Posted by Glen M

I could not agree more that any computer or more so console needs that killer game to make it sell. The CD32 game was microcosm that looks fantastic but played like balls.

A basic wipeout clone might just have been possible. Taking guardian for an example with its 3D environment it is fast enough until the screen gets filled with enemies.

Yeah, I agreed basically with everything you said.
I didn't know about Guardian, and it looks like a pretty nice game, although, I assume programmers could maybe made it to run a little bit better on the stock CD32. But anyway, I see it was released in 94 (don't know what month), so it's at least several months, after the CD32 was out.
Maybe it would do better (for the console sells), if it would been released as a free game that comes with CD32.
However, some fast paced Wipeout clone would be even better (with the limitations we discussed).

Yeah, I also understand the importance many people gave to the fmv sequences. I guess they were unsure at the time is the 3D gaming next step, or it was the games that played movies sequences.

But common man ... in october 1991, they had Amiga 3000 driving first virtual reality machine, with helmet and everything..
And 2 years later, they release console (and computer), that had very little hardware potentials, to make some 3D/not seen before.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtuality_(gaming)
[ Show youtube player ]

But even as it is, a CD32 could be a huge market success, imho, if only they had 3-4 cool exclusive titles for it, and nice campaign.
And yeah, I also love CD32... and I really like it's ability, to turn it to the real A1200 computer. That was awesome.

[Hewitson]

Whilst software does normally sell a console, I don't think it would have helped much in the CD32's case. Such software (unless it used the Akiko) would work on a 1200.

Why would anyone buy the CD32 instead of the 1200?

Other stupid consoles such as 64GS and Atari XE Games System failed for the same reasons. It was the warez scene that sold their computer counterparts, not the software commercially available for purchase as is the case with consoles. Completely different market.

[d4rk3lf]

Originally Posted by Hewitson

Why would anyone buy the CD32 instead of the 1200?

In that case, releasing exclusive games for CD32 (with Akiko), and then, several months later, releasing the CD drive with Akiko for A1200 (like they planned), would probably do the trick.
That way, they would "force", even existing A1200 to upgrade.

I think only a few awesome games released the day when console is released, would make a very huge difference.

[Glen M]

Originally Posted by Hewitson

Whilst software does normally sell a console, I don't think it would have helped much in the CD32's case. Such software (unless it used the Akiko) would work on a 1200.

Why would anyone buy the CD32 instead of the 1200?

Other stupid consoles such as 64GS and Atari XE Games System failed for the same reasons. It was the warez scene that sold their computer counterparts, not the software commercially available for purchase as is the case with consoles. Completely different market.

I find it hard to believe that piracy was the driving factor in computer sales but I do take your point that the model of console from computer has never worked.

Perhaps if games had been given an exclusivity of say 6 months before moving to the 1200 or maybe if akikko had of had a bigger impact in performance then it would of helped.

But it is what it is.

[Glen M]

Originally Posted by d4rk3lf

in october 1991, they had Amiga 3000 driving first virtual reality machine

Yes but how much did an A3000 cost? Your argument is the CD32 should of had an 030 processor and fast ram (then whatever else that A3000 had to do those graphics) and we've been there in this thread. Its all about the MONEY and a CD32 with that spec could of killed yes but who would spend that amount on the console. 3DO anyone? The concept of selling the hardware at an initial loss then recouping costs through software didn't really come about until the playstation but then again commodore were not a software house.

In all honesty there are so many things in this discussion that it is impossible to pin it down to a single reason for failure

BTW guardian in my opinion pushes the console to its limits. I really don't think they could of got it any faster unless they had fast ram in there which really shows part of the problem with the AGA chipset and its slow chip ram.

[Hewitson]

Originally Posted by d4rk3lf

In that case, releasing exclusive games for CD32 (with Akiko), and then, several months later, releasing the CD drive with Akiko for A1200 (like they planned), would probably do the trick.
That way, they would "force", even existing A1200 to upgrade.

I think only a few awesome games released the day when console is released, would make a very huge difference.

Maybe. But I don't believe the features of Akiko would have allowed for much better games, and I'm sure these games would have been cracked to run on a standard Amiga by replacing the Akiko functions with software routines anyway.

Originally Posted by Glen M

I find it hard to believe that piracy was the driving factor in computer sales

I absolutely believe it was, for both the C64 and the Amiga. It was also the same story with the Playstation.

[Amigajay]

Originally Posted by Hewitson

Why would anyone buy the CD32 instead of the 1200?

Other stupid consoles such as 64GS and Atari XE Games System failed for the same reasons. It was the warez scene that sold their computer counterparts, not the software commercially available for purchase as is the case with consoles. Completely different market.

Because people were fed up with disk swapping, wanted cd audio, fancy intros, speech and huge amiga collections on cd along with a standard controller layout as well as being able to upgrade to a full Amiga computer, plenty of reasons people wanted one, just because you didn’t don’t be blind to its merits.

The C64GS failed because its games were near identical to C64 games, but £25-£30 instead of £2-£10 on tape, the price difference between Amiga and CD32 games was only £5 extra on average, that along with the tech was 8 years old by time of release, at least the GX4000 was based on new 8bit tech!

Originally Posted by d4rk3lf

In that case, releasing exclusive games for CD32 (with Akiko), and then, several months later, releasing the CD drive with Akiko for A1200 (like they planned), would probably do the trick.
That way, they would "force", even existing A1200 to upgrade.

I think only a few awesome games released the day when console is released, would make a very huge difference.

Commodore were being dicks with the A1200 CD drive, instead of quickly trying to increase the Amiga CD userbase they wanted A1200 owners to buy CD32’s and connect them up, instead they delayed and delayed the A1200 drive by which time publishers thought sod it just keep making disk games, Commodore could have had a thriving Amiga CD library that worked across all formats had they not fucked the A570 (and A670/CD1200 both never came out).

[Gzegzolka]

With all knowledge we have right now I could answer to this simple question with short answer - because of lack of strategy and wrong decisions made by Commodore and also because of lack of strong exclusive games.

I believe that Cd32 could be more successful even with it's visual awful design (cheep plastic, easy to broke cd drive, short pad cables and not handy pad) and not so great hardware design (it is just A1200 with cd drive and modified kickstart).
Personally I like a lot games on CD32 and I enjoy playing them

[Hewitson]

Originally Posted by Amigajay

Because people were fed up with disk swapping, wanted cd audio, fancy intros, speech and huge amiga collections on cd along with a standard controller layout as well as being able to upgrade to a full Amiga computer, plenty of reasons people wanted one, just because you didn’t don’t be blind to its merits.

Disk swapping can be tedious, but let's face it, many of the CD32 games were 1 disk games.

The CD Audio on most games sucked compared to the original Amiga music.

The controller, although it wasn't brilliant, was certainly an upgrade.

The upgrade solutions for the CD32 were, and still are, ridiculously expensive. You make it sound like they were common, but in fact they were quite rare.

Originally Posted by Amigajay

The C64GS failed because its games were near identical to C64 games, but £25-£30 instead of £2-£10 on tape

The problem was, people had to actually pay for the games. On a C64 or Amiga, they did not.

Buy a CD32 to play games because it's cheaper than a 1200. Buy a few games. You could have had a 1200, plus pirated copies of those games for less. Hardly an appealing deal is it?

[Amigajay]

Originally Posted by Hewitson

Disk swapping can be tedious, but let's face it, many of the CD32 games were 1 disk games.

The CD Audio on most games sucked compared to the original Amiga music.

The controller, although it wasn't brilliant, was certainly an upgrade.

The upgrade solutions for the CD32 were, and still are, ridiculously expensive. You make it sound like they were common, but in fact they were quite rare.


The problem was, people had to actually pay for the games. On a C64 or Amiga, they did not.

Buy a CD32 to play games because it's cheaper than a 1200. Buy a few games. You could have had a 1200, plus pirated copies of those games for less. Hardly an appealing deal is it?

I didn’t really want to in a discussion with someone who clearly has never played many CD32 games, plenty of games have great CD soundtracks, Chaos Engine, Pinball Fantasies, James Pond 2, Fire & Ice etc along with games actually having some music unlike the disk version - Super Methane Bros etc

Yes the CD32 upgrades were expensive but like upgrading an A1200 with CD drive roughly worked put at the same price (£500 in autumn 1994) SX-32’s were rare mainly because they came out 95/96 when a huge chunk of owners either left or stopped buying anymore upgrades, the SX-1 was easy to pick up loads of retailers sold it in 1994.

And paying for games or not doesn’t distract from my original points of game prices and why certain machines like the C64GS failed, but thankfully not everyone was like you and there was a big enough market for publishers to release games.

[Mikerochip]

I don't know if anyone is interested in reading, but, I've added an article on the CD32 from Edge issue 8, May 1994.

It's 9 pages in total: