PC games that made the Amiga look like Shit

[redblade]

Originally Posted by TCD

Wait, what? id was a 'established professional team'? Granted they made games before, but you should really read/watch more about the history (especially the bit when they went to Sierra to sell the company and how that didn't happen) of that company. Same goes for Apogee/3D Realms. Those were punk rock kids of games development.

id would be considered a startup doing 80+ hour weeks so I guess one year = two normal years so they would be considered as established? I don't think they were knocking off at 5pm or at 3:30-4pm on a friday and then having beers.

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

The real problems occurred after installation, when the game often would not run due to lack of conventional memory or misconfigured drivers. A typical DOS PC would need to have the config.sys and autoexec.bat files edited to remove or reconfigure drivers for more conventional memory. You might also have to go into the BIOS setup to maximize extended memory. Sound cards and CDROM drives could be problem too, as they needed drivers set up for the specific hardware including interrupts and I//O addresses.

The worst thing was that one setup often didn't suit everything. To maximize memory you would have smartdrive turned off, no disk buffers added, and the BIOS set to not shadow the BIOS and video card ROMs, all of which could dramatically slow down the computer in normal operation. Most of this could be avoided by using a custom boot disk, but most PC users didn't want to do that!

I remember that when we got the PC in 1995. Doom ran easily, just install Doom, run setup and type Doom. Good old DOS4GW.

Wolfenstein 3D/Spear of Destiny on the other hand..... Having to manually confirm each line in the config.sys and autoexec.bat so you would have memory to play those two games. I can't remember if I had to do the same to play Commander Keen?!? Learnt a lot about DOS that way.

[TCD]

Originally Posted by redblade

id would be considered a startup doing 80+ hour weeks so I guess one year = two normal years so they would be considered as established? I don't think they were knocking off at 5pm or at 3:30-4pm on a friday and then having beers.

John Carmack is still on a 60 hours week. My point was that id at the time they wrote Doom weren't a big company that was 'professional'. By 1993 there were 'professional' companies around, but I wouldn't put id in that basket.

On a similar note I'm just watching Dario Casali's Half-Life 25th anniversary playthrough and he talks about creating Half-Life back in 1997/98. Valve at that time was also not that 'professional'. The team was certainly bigger than any team working on an Amiga game, but thinking that everybody working on successful PC games in the 90s was already professional in the sense that the industry is today is quite off in my opinion.

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by TCD

The team was certainly bigger than any team working on an Amiga game, but thinking that everybody working on successful PC games in the 90s was already professional in the sense that the industry is today is quite off in my opinion.

Software Development: An Industry of Amateurs

October 17, 2018

I have called the software industry an industry of amateurs. We are a young field, and I don’t think we’ve yet graduated into a true profession.

True professions have some defining characteristics. They have a common body of knowledge that all professionals understand and adhere to. We do not have this in the software industry. Programmers learn programming languages in school, but they’re rarely taught how to actually create a well-written program. In fact, terms like “well-written” and “good code” are highly subjective because we don't yet have a definitive description for what “good” is in our industry...

You can go to school and study computer science or software engineering, but it's not very relevant to what you need to know in the field. Just as many professional software developers do not have a computer science degree as those who do.

Furthermore, there is no apprenticeship model in the software industry. And because schools are at least twenty years behind the times, actually doing the job while being lucky enough to apprentice with someone who’s been doing it for a while is the only way to really learn the state of the art of software development.

Around half of all professional software developers are self-taught, meaning that they did not study the subject in college. In truth, all professional software developers are self-taught, because the skills we need on the job are rarely covered outside the workplace. We learn as we go.

True professions have standards and practices that are defined and enforced by some kind of oversight organization. In the US, for medicine it’s the American Medical Association, and for law it’s the American Bar Association. The software industry does not yet have this. We don't even have any organizations in our industry that are candidates to become this.

[petran]

the peculiar thing was that at that time the do called "computer science" at universities and secondary education schools was rather part of engineering and science faculties like physics and mathematics.

[rKickrkds]

A couple of older games (pre 1991) I remember playing a lot on both that were clearly better on PC (old 286)- I got the Amiga after the PC in 1992.

Bloodwych - 1989
Drakkhen - 1989
F29 Retaliator - 1989 This was much smoother, and has LAPC-I sound support.
Millennium: Return to Earth - 1989
Space Quest 3 1989
Crime Time 1990
Wolf Pack - 1990 Used all 256 colours and smooth as silk. Amiga was slower with reduced colours (with 1MB).
Stratego - 1990 Had 640x480 resolution and MT32 support
Laser Squad - 1991 Much better than the already good Amiga version.
MiG-29M Super Fulcrum - 1991

[pandy71]

Originally Posted by rKickrkds

A couple of older games (pre 1991) I remember playing a lot on both that were clearly better on PC (old 286)- I got the Amiga after the PC in 1992.

Bloodwych - 1989
Drakkhen - 1989
F29 Retaliator - 1989 This was much smoother, and has LAPC-I sound support.
Millennium: Return to Earth - 1989
Space Quest 3 1989
Crime Time 1990
Wolf Pack - 1990 Used all 256 colours and smooth as silk. Amiga was slower with reduced colours (with 1MB).
Stratego - 1990 Had 640x480 resolution and MT32 support
Laser Squad - 1991 Much better than the already good Amiga version.
MiG-29M Super Fulcrum - 1991

All this on EGA and 286@12MHz?

[Megalomaniac]

Originally Posted by petran

the peculiar thing was that at that time the do called "computer science" at universities and secondary education schools was rather part of engineering and science faculties like physics and mathematics.

At least one UK university still has Digital Games Development within the School of Architecture, Technology and Engineering, which makes me think its not an appreciated subject (or, at least, not one that particular uni feels competitive in). It's not surprising though that, as the Amiga declined, Amiga Format expressed concerns about where future developers would come from - PCs were still unfriendly, programming on a console wasn't an option, and academia wasn't really producing programmers. The Amiga was the last system where one or two people in a bedroom could produce a hit - Another World is all Eric Chahi except the music and some sound, Kick Off (1 and 2) are all Dino and Steve, IK+ is all Archer except the music, Worms was mostly done by Andy Davidson in his spare time. Teams really multiplied in the PC era.

On the specific topic, we usually compare a £2000 1990 PC with a £400 1987 Amiga - and which will have done better with 1992 games? It also ignores that even a 1Mb floppy-based Amiga still beat any PC for arcade games, an Amiga with a hard drive (£400 for 20Mb or £530 for 40Mb by late 1989) outdid any PC on 'creative' work, and probably matched at least a pre-Windows 3 PC for productivity (though the PC having 'the software you used at work or at college' did matter in the end)

[rKickrkds]

Originally Posted by pandy71

All this on EGA and 286@12MHz?

286@12 with an 8bit VGA ISA card 256KB (bought 1989). They run faster than the Amiga versions with VGA. All support SB and MT32.

Most of these games will run too fast on a 386 and need to be de-turbo.

Back then I played them for ages as it was much harder to get PC games, so I could easily compare them to the Amiga versions when I got my Amiga in 1992.

All those games apart from Crime Time and MiG-29M Super Fulcrum also worked on a 8088 PC my friend had in 1990.
Developers didn't make these games to take advantage of a 286 let alone a 386 from 1987-90. They were very underutilized. A lot of PC games released later in 1992-93 run fine in VGA on a 286 and show what it could do.

[CCCP alert]

Would like to see real hardware footage of F29 and Mig running on a real 12mhz 286, no DOSbox incorrectly configured as some 10ghz 486 crap, the real hardware.

YT search says no, but then YT search is as useless as a Mattel Aquarius lol_

Falcon (Mirrorsoft) on A500 spec and 520ST(uses software samples for in game SFX too) runs faster than 8mhz 8086 PC, nearly twice as fast.

Wings 3D mini-game ran about twice as fast on my A1200 as my A500, ditto with Virus and Simulcra so........

[rKickrkds]

Originally Posted by CCCP alert

Would like to see real hardware footage of F29 and Mig running on a real 12mhz 286, no DOSbox incorrectly configured as some 10ghz 486 crap, the real hardware.

YT search says no, but then YT search is as useless as a Mattel Aquarius lol_

Falcon (Mirrorsoft) on A500 spec and 520ST(uses software samples for in game SFX too) runs faster than 8mhz 8086 PC, nearly twice as fast.

Wings 3D mini-game ran about twice as fast on my A1200 as my A500, ditto with Virus and Simulcra so........

They were playable on an 8088 but fast on a 286 (i'm comparing here using a 286 not 8088 that my friend played them on).

That list of games I played a lot were better on the PC, and they were old, 1989 most of them. No developer would have made a game pre 1990 that would need a 386 to run passable (or even a fast 286).


Later on I use to play Alone in the Dark and Tubular Worlds on my 286 (yes it has smooth scrolling). Also games like Gods, F1GP, Stuntcar Racer, Fate of Atlantis, Dyna Blaster, Dune, Rampart (this last one was much better than Amiga version, pretty much arcade perfect).

[lmimmfn]

Originally Posted by rKickrkds

A couple of older games (pre 1991) I remember playing a lot on both that were clearly better on PC (old 286)- I got the Amiga after the PC in 1992.

Bloodwych - 1989
Drakkhen - 1989
F29 Retaliator - 1989 This was much smoother, and has LAPC-I sound support.
Millennium: Return to Earth - 1989
Space Quest 3 1989
Crime Time 1990
Wolf Pack - 1990 Used all 256 colours and smooth as silk. Amiga was slower with reduced colours (with 1MB).
Stratego - 1990 Had 640x480 resolution and MT32 support
Laser Squad - 1991 Much better than the already good Amiga version.
MiG-29M Super Fulcrum - 1991

F29 Retaliator, did it need to be any smoother than the Amiga version? I thought it was already very smooth on Amiga but that it's collision detection sucked.

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by rKickrkds

A couple of older games (pre 1991) I remember playing a lot on both that were clearly better on PC (old 286)- I got the Amiga after the PC in 1992.

Bloodwych - 1989
Drakkhen - 1989
F29 Retaliator - 1989 This was much smoother, and has LAPC-I sound support.
Millennium: Return to Earth - 1989
Space Quest 3 1989
Crime Time 1990
Wolf Pack - 1990 Used all 256 colours and smooth as silk. Amiga was slower with reduced colours (with 1MB).
Stratego - 1990 Had 640x480 resolution and MT32 support
Laser Squad - 1991 Much better than the already good Amiga version.
MiG-29M Super Fulcrum - 1991

In what way is Space Quest 3 'clearly better' on a 286 with VGA than the Amiga? The graphics appear to be identical. Sound might be better if you had an MT32, which it should be at US$695 (price on release in 1987).

Of course the Amiga version of Space Quest could have been better if it made better use of the Amiga's hardware. For example if they had used 32 colors the characters wouldn't have blended in with the background when 16 colors weren't enough. But this is what we expect from a port. Enhancing the game for the Amiga was just too much effort, so we got a game that is (AFAICT) virtually identical to original. Unlike some I actually appreciated Sierra giving us an opportunity to share the PC experience. Their artists did an amazing job of working with such a limited medium.

[Bruce Abbott]

Laser Squad certainly looks a lot better in the PC version. My sources say it was released in 1992 so technically it's outside the specified timeframe for this thread. However the Amiga version appears to be a rather lackluster port of the original ZX Spectrum version. Not good!

[gimbal]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

In what way is Space Quest 3 'clearly better' on a 286 with VGA than the Amiga? The graphics appear to be identical. Sound might be better if you had an MT32, which it should be at US$695 (price on release in 1987).

Wouldn't know, the Amiga version is my favorite version. On a PC it is probably a little more snappy, but why would you want to speed through such a short game

[rKickrkds]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

In what way is Space Quest 3 'clearly better' on a 286 with VGA than the Amiga? The graphics appear to be identical. Sound might be better if you had an MT32, which it should be at US$695 (price on release in 1987).

Of course the Amiga version of Space Quest could have been better if it made better use of the Amiga's hardware. For example if they had used 32 colors the characters wouldn't have blended in with the background when 16 colors weren't enough. But this is what we expect from a port. Enhancing the game for the Amiga was just too much effort, so we got a game that is (AFAICT) virtually identical to original. Unlike some I actually appreciated Sierra giving us an opportunity to share the PC experience. Their artists did an amazing job of working with such a limited medium.

Les Manley and Altered Destiny were two PC adventure game ports that got upgraded on Amiga. Both PC versions they cheaped out in 1990/91 and only used 16 color VGA.
The Amiga versions had full 32 color. I think Elivra 1 was the same, 32 color on Amiga and 16 VGA on PC but not 100% sure on that one.

[TCD]

Originally Posted by rKickrkds

Les Manley and Altered Destiny were two PC adventure game ports that got upgraded on Amiga. Both PC versions they cheaped out in 1990/91 and only used 16 color VGA.
The Amiga versions had full 32 color. I think Elivra 1 was the same, 32 color on Amiga and 16 VGA on PC but not 100% sure on that one.

They even made an ad about that fact:

[Aardvark]

Elvira in VGA mode uses Amiga graphics. There are no improvements or reduced colors.

[TCD]

Originally Posted by Aardvark

Elvira in VGA mode uses Amiga graphics. There are no improvements or reduced colors.

Just had a look at the ingame conversion shot we have on HOL for the PC version and that uses 23 unique colors. Seems like that ad is indeed at least a bit misleading.

[Amigajay]

Originally Posted by TCD

Just had a look at the ingame conversion shot we have on HOL for the PC version and that uses 23 unique colors. Seems like that ad is indeed at least a bit misleading.

I wouldn’t say misleading, if all the games were redrawn for the Amiga, then there is no reason why the PC version couldn’t have used the Amiga graphics for the VGA version (same for VGA Lemmings etc) after all if it was a proper VGA version it would have used alot more colours, so technically there still was no PC graphics here as stated in the advert.

[sokolovic]

Originally Posted by Amigajay

I wouldn’t say misleading, if all the games were redrawn for the Amiga, then there is no reason why the PC version couldn’t have used the Amiga graphics for the VGA version (same for VGA Lemmings etc) after all if it was a proper VGA version it would have used alot more colours, so technically there still was no PC graphics here as stated in the advert.

If the gfx of the PC version are based on the Amiga one, doesn't that makes the Amiga version the original one, contrarly at was is stated in HOL ?