ORIGINAL WorkBench checksums

[Calgor]

btw, I am not so sure just changing the mod timestamp of a file will make it same as original. When amiga writes back to disk, I thought it is not guaranteed to always write back in the same place..... something to do with mfm encoding or what-not... not sure exactly how the filesystem works. Like when reading a track it reads in order 1,2,3,4 but could write back in physical order on the disk as 4,1,2,3. Anyway I am sure filesystem experts can correct me if I am wrong or under what circumstances it will/won't write back exactly the same.

In other words, even if the file is copied back to exactly the same, maybe it is written to disk in different order, thereby making the crc value of the disk/adf different.

Some people try to copy a different original over the top of a modified original (thinking it is exactly the same), but that will just end up confusing everyone if some third party looks at the disk subsequently and thinks it was never modified. Personally, I reckon if an original was modified it's too bad and you should not try to restore it, thereby avoiding the risk of further overwriting the data that still exists on the disk. Use a fresh disk instead if you want the original digital copy.

But if you do an SPS dump, aren't they able to tell if the disk was modified from original?

I really hope someone will confirm or deny my comments.

@rhester72

Yes I did understand that you were saying 2 original copies may not be necessary, I was just pointing out where you might want to be careful with that.

[Supamax]

@ Jope

Hello mate, thank you very much for your contribution!!

[rhester72]

Originally Posted by Calgor

btw, I am not so sure just changing the mod timestamp of a file will make it same as original. When amiga writes back to disk, I thought it is not guaranteed to always write back in the same place..... something to do with mfm encoding or what-not... not sure exactly how the filesystem works. Like when reading a track it reads in order 1,2,3,4 but could write back in physical order on the disk as 4,1,2,3. Anyway I am sure filesystem experts can correct me if I am wrong or under what circumstances it will/won't write back exactly the same.

In other words, even if the file is copied back to exactly the same, maybe it is written to disk in different order, thereby making the crc value of the disk/adf different.

Some people try to copy a different original over the top of a modified original (thinking it is exactly the same), but that will just end up confusing everyone if some third party looks at the disk subsequently and thinks it was never modified. Personally, I reckon if an original was modified it's too bad and you should not try to restore it, thereby avoiding the risk of further overwriting the data that still exists on the disk. Use a fresh disk instead if you want the original digital copy.

But if you do an SPS dump, aren't they able to tell if the disk was modified from original?

I really hope someone will confirm or deny my comments.

@rhester72

Yes I did understand that you were saying 2 original copies may not be necessary, I was just pointing out where you might want to be careful with that.

I've never advocated trying to "hand-repair" an original and agree with your comments there - there's simply no value to doing so. However, if the modifications were extremely minor and "un-done" in precisely reverse order, you have an excellent chance that they will occupy the same sectors and modify the BAM in precisely the same way as the original - this has been tested and covered earlier in this very thread.

SPS can tell if an original disk was ever modified in any way (even if subsequently "un-modified") only because the TRACE duplicators in almost universal use in the 80s and 90s left an unmistakable 'fingerprint' that could not be reproduced by a "normal" end-user drive mechanism. It would indeed be ideal for verification of Workbench and application floppies as well, but the SPS team has currently declined doing any research outside of the gaming arena (see the recent discussion in the SPS forum for details).

Rodney

[Jonathan Drain]

I think these disks are unmodified, but it's been a while and so can't be sure. I'll post them anyway. All are PAL and came with UK Amigas (although the codes say "Int., so International?").

The following came with an Amiga 600HD. All are Workbench 2.05.

Extras 367824-04 Int. $86DAEC05
Fonts 367825-03 Int. $E1BED0A1
A600HD Install Disk 367943-01 Int. $A48BA9D1
Workbench 367813-03 Int. $BE1CC8B9

The following came with an A600 second hand. They probably came with the machine originally, though I can't be certain, and they may have been modified before I got them. All are Workbench 2.05.

Extras (alt) 657824-04 Int. $57EE1DD2
Fonts (alt) 367825-03 Int. $7401ABA4

[ganralf]

"The Very First" most likely unchanged:
Erste Schritte DE 380921-01 $946d9b2a

WB 1.2 set probably changed:
Extras DE 380706-10 $ebe4a85c
Workbench DE 317610-03 $a3bb29c3

[Supamax]

@ Jonathan Drain and ganralf:

Thank you very much for your contribution, mates!

Originally Posted by Redwood

@Supamax I've checked and the part numbers do indeed start with 310. However looking at them again, I'm inclined to think that Calgor might be right - it's possible the disks are not Commodore originals, with printed stickers.

Hi Redwood,
could you (when you have some spare time) upload (or e-mail to me; I can give you my e-mail address via PM) a scan of your 310xxx disks' labels?

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

2327431c ?CRC32*extras_1.2_13548.adf
a010b4c6 ?CRC32*extras_316167-01.adf
7c45b834 ?CRC32*kaleidoscope_316160-01.adf
70d0030a ?CRC32*kickstart_1.1_pal_327244-02.adf
b57fd60f ?CRC32*tutor_fi_13549.adf
998b3fba ?CRC32*workbench_1.1_327245-02.adf
9b0c3af0 ?CRC32*workbench_33.47_13547.adf

Hi Toni,
thanks for your confirmation that the above are CRCs calculated from your physical disks, even if "most of them are surely modified by having write protection off somewhere in late 1980s.."

[Supamax]

Sorry for all these questions, mates... the answers will help the list a lot:

Originally Posted by Jonathan Drain

Extras 367824-04 Int. $86DAEC05
Fonts 367825-03 Int. $E1BED0A1
Workbench 367813-03 Int. $BE1CC8B9
Extras (alt) 657824-04 Int. $57EE1DD2
Fonts (alt) 367825-03 Int. $7401ABA4

Hi Jonathan,
could you check their versions (v37.71 / v37.72 / ..) ?

Originally Posted by ganralf

Extras DE 380706-10 $ebe4a85c
Workbench DE 317610-03 $a3bb29c3

Hi ganralf,
could you check their versions? v33.56?

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

a010b4c6 ?CRC32*extras_316167-01.adf

Hi Toni,
does the disk include Basic and Amiga Tutor?
Is it PAL or NTSC? Could you check its version (v31.334 / ..) ?

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

70d0030a ?CRC32*kickstart_1.1_pal_327244-02.adf

Could you check its version (v32.34 / ..) ?

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

998b3fba ?CRC32*workbench_1.1_327245-02.adf

Is it Finnish?
Could you check its version (v31.334 / ..) ?

Originally Posted by Jope

These have Finnish PCI Data-part numbers and matrix printer labels

Hi Jope,
what does PCI mean?

Is "amiga tutor finnish" the Finnish equivalent of "the very first" ?

Originally Posted by Jope

amiga kickstart 1.1 50Hz (no partno anywhere!) 70d0030a

could you check its version (v31.34 / v32.34 ..) ?

Originally Posted by Jope

amiga workbench 1.1 327245-02 0be0603c
amiga extras + amiga tutor + abasic 316167-01 3cbf918d

Are they PAL or NTSC?
Could you check their versions (v31.334 / ..) ?

Originally Posted by Jope

kickstart 1.2 13546 9952865a
workbench 1.2 13547 5b47ca49
extras 1.2 13548 3cbf918d
amiga tutor finnish 13549 c8a734ac

Could you check their versions (v33.56 / ..) ?

Originally Posted by Jope

extras 1.2 13548 3cbf918d

Does the disk include BASIC 1.2 too?

[Jonathan Drain]

Originally Posted by Supamax

Hi Jonathan,
could you check their versions (v37.71 / v37.72 / ..) ?

37.71 according to the startup screen on the A600HD Workbench disk and Install disk. I suspect the A600 disks are the same (identical label, same version string for some programs I compared).

Unfortunately, when I was copying files from the disk to compare the A600, Workbench gave checksum errors on the following disks: A600HD Install, A600HD Fonts, A600 Extras (alt). The CRCs from these probably aren't useful then.

[Supamax]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Drain

37.71 according to the startup screen on the A600HD Workbench disk and Install disk. I suspect the A600 disks are the same (identical label, same version string for some programs I compared).

Ok, thanks .
Regarding the A600 disks, are you sure about the labels? You wrote "Extras (alt) 657824-04 Int. $57EE1DD2"... are you sure about p/n 657824-04?
Or perhaps did you want to write 367824-04? If not, then they are indeed different disks.

Unfortunately, when I was copying files from the disk to compare the A600, Workbench gave checksum errors on the following disks: A600HD Install, A600HD Fonts, A600 Extras (alt). The CRCs from these probably aren't useful then.

Okay, I'll assign them a black colour code for now.

[Jonathan Drain]

Whoops, I did mean 367824-4. Must have been a typo.

[ganralf]

Originally Posted by Supamax

Hi ganralf,
could you check their versions? v33.56?

The WB is 33.56 (from Startup-Sequence). The Extras Disk has no Version, but both disks came with my A500 back in 88 so it's save to give it the same version number.

[orange]

kickstart and eprom checksums would be much more useful, esp with byteswap so that newbies knew they are doing it right.

[Supamax]

Originally Posted by cosmicfrog

all this time stamp stuff becomes irrelevant if the write protect tab is on & has never been off

You're right,
but many (if not almost all) of us, back in the day, didn't keep the write protect on on our disks. This is one of the main reasons for this thread to be updated and - hopefully - completed .

Originally Posted by orange

kickstart and eprom checksums would be much more useful, esp with byteswap so that newbies knew they are doing it right.

Hi orange,
at the moment this thread is all about WB/KS disks (and utilities/install disks bundled with the Amigas back in the day), not KS ROMs.
Perhaps in the future...

Originally Posted by Jonathan Drain

Whoops, I did mean 367824-4. Must have been a typo.

Originally Posted by ganralf

The WB is 33.56 (from Startup-Sequence). The Extras Disk has no Version, but both disks came with my A500 back in 88 so it's save to give it the same version number.

Thank you mates,
list corrected/updated .

[orange]

in any case, it seems like 'reinventing the wheel' since (as mentioned) tosec has all checksums.

i think that timestamp/'missing battery' is completely irrelevant to this 'story'. btw, if you are so worried about errors, maybe you should go for md5 or some other hash..

it would be nice if they had made .ipf of workbench disks (did they?). not sure if those would be any different from adf/dms as they lack copy protection, but still..
i know that CAPS doesn't do applications, but workbench is more than that.

[rhester72]

orange,

I might recommend you read the complete thread from the beginning - most of your questions/concerns have been raised and addressed.

Rodney

[Supamax]

Originally Posted by orange

in any case, it seems like 'reinventing the wheel' since (as mentioned) tosec has all checksums.

No, TOSEC has not all checksums. And those it has are not all "sure" (with the [!] flag).
Furthermore, TOSEC's [!] checksum were among the first ones included in the list.

[rhester72]

With all due respect, I'm not sure how much I trust the TOSEC data, anyway. :/

Rodney

[Supamax]

Originally Posted by rhester72

With all due respect, I'm not sure how much I trust the TOSEC data, anyway. :/

Rodney

This is the reason why I assigned a Blue colour to TOSEC's [!] CRCs .
When/if (and only when/if) they are confirmed by another user, they get the Bold Green colour.

[Jope]

Originally Posted by Supamax

Hi Jope,
what does PCI mean?

PET-Commodore Inc

Is "amiga tutor finnish" the Finnish equivalent of "the very first" ?

No, it is the Amiga Tutor that was shipped with A1000 computers. The Very First was made a few years later for the A500.

could you check its version (v31.34 / v32.34 ..) ?

Exec is 31.34

Are they PAL or NTSC?

Kickstart is PAL/NTSC, WB doesn't care.

Could you check their versions (v31.334 / ..) ?

amiga workbench 1.1 327245-02 0be0603c NOT ORIGINAL, someone's messed with the system-configuration.

Also, no version info available for these.

Could you check their versions (v33.56 / ..) ?

kickstart 1.2 13546 9952865a exec is 33.192
workbench 1.2 13547 5b47ca49 33.47 (the disk's label is WB, perhaps someone's mucked in here too)
extras 1.2 13548 3cbf918d (where do you find version info in this apart from the disk label, which doesn't have it?)
amiga tutor finnish 13549 c8a734ac (doesn't have version info, it's just a translated version of the amiga tutor)

Does the disk include BASIC 1.2 too?

Yes.

[LocalH]

I have an original US set of Workbench 2.1 disks. I have not owned them since they were bought, but my uncle did, and he was very adamant about keeping originals write-protected (and I have not even used them at all since I acquired them). Part numbers follow:

Install - 370166-01
Workbench - 370167-01
Extras - 370168-01
Fonts - 370169-01
Locale - 370170-01

I don't have my either of my Amigas up at the moment, so I can't image them and check the CRC32, but as soon as I get a chance I will do so.