How does X2:Megablast parallax with all that colors?

[AndNN]

Originally Posted by frank_b

Not every Amiga has EHB btw. My NTSC 1k doesn't

Just a few early models though and you had the option to upgrade the chip for the extra mode. So using EHB mode is not much of a big deal plus there was a few games released commercially using the mode.

But if you want authentic Amiga arcade then the A1200 is best suited for the task. Super Stardust is a good example of something that could of been arcade using AGA.

Thinking about it, an EHB version could be possible using fast memory... 64 colours sure goes a long way than 32 colours for an arcade look.

[Tigerskunk]

Originally Posted by AndNN

I agree the 1200 programmed in the right way using the extra wide sprites and 256 colours is easily suited for Arcade conversions.

The OCS using EHB mode will strain the cpu with DMA contention. Depending on how traditional you want to be or not using fast RAM will help loads. By doing this you will have options to use sprites, BOBs, and CPU sprites (writing to chip, while the code runs and reads from fast does not put much of a strain on the system).

I would love to see an arcade quality game on OCS using fast memory just to see what the Amiga could of done if it was allowed to use all available resources.

But then it's not an original OCS configuration system, which makes it a little bit less cool.

[AndNN]

Originally Posted by sandruzzo

For Rygar we don't use any fast ram and go well. I guess whit it we can have a very good conversion!

I should check out Rygar now that I've got back into the Amiga scene again

[sandruzzo]

Originally Posted by AndNN

I should check out Rygar now that I've got back into the Amiga scene again

Fast ram, should be way to go...

[AndNN]

Originally Posted by Steril707

But then it's not an original OCS configuration system, which makes it a little bit less cool.

I'm not sure about less cool in 2016 now... most amiga users have fast memory now so why not use it - just to see what can be possible.

I really wish some developer/publisher released a game on OCS using fast memory that required at least 2mb of ram so that it would of forced users to upgrade. I'm sure if there was a killer game... say for example Super Stardust using EHB released in 1987/88 would of opened the doors up to fast memory use but unfortunately no-one had the balls to do it.

But in 2016 I see no reason not to use it... and it might actually make the scene a more interesting space.

[sandruzzo]

Originally Posted by AndNN

I'm not sure about less cool in 2016 now... most amiga users have fast memory now so why not use it - just to see what can be possible.

I really wish some developer/publisher released a game on OCS using fast memory that required at least 2mb of ram so that it would of forced users to upgrade. I'm sure if there was a killer game... say for example Super Stardust using EHB released in 1987/88 would of opened the doors up to fast memory use but unfortunately no-one had the balls to do it.

But in 2016 I see no reason not to use it... and it might actually make the scene a more interesting space.

I agree with you. Even 1 mb for ocs/ecs and 2mb for aga will suffice!

[AndNN]

Originally Posted by sandruzzo

I agree with you. Even 1 mb for ocs/ecs and 2mb for aga will suffice!

Maybe games back in the day should of offered enhanced modes... going back to Super Stardust, which looked ok on OCS using 32 colours, would of been extra cool tapping into fast memory usage and EHB mode. May of been a good way to get people to upgrade to fast RAM.

Maybe you could consider this for Rygar?

[sandruzzo]

Originally Posted by AndNN

Maybe games back in the day should of offered enhanced modes... going back to Super Stardust, which looked ok on OCS using 32 colours, would of been extra cool tapping into fast memory usage and EHB mode. May of been a good way to get people to upgrade to fast RAM.

Maybe you could consider this for Rygar?

Yes, we're considering 64 colors. First we'll try with only chip, then fast

[Tigerskunk]

Originally Posted by AndNN

I'm not sure about less cool in 2016 now... most amiga users have fast memory now so why not use it - just to see what can be possible.

I really wish some developer/publisher released a game on OCS using fast memory that required at least 2mb of ram so that it would of forced users to upgrade. I'm sure if there was a killer game... say for example Super Stardust using EHB released in 1987/88 would of opened the doors up to fast memory use but unfortunately no-one had the balls to do it.

But in 2016 I see no reason not to use it... and it might actually make the scene a more interesting space.

I had this argument a few times..

basically:

* this is not 1989 anymore. The war of upgrading our systems to have better looking games is lost.
* most remaining hardcore amiga users are also having turbo accelerators or maybe even PPC cards, and are using RTG. Why coding for that old OCS crap then? Answer: because it's a kind of the standard every Amiga has. And for most people outside of our little Amiga bubble, this is still THE AMIGA they know. (add/edit: and it's simply fun coding against its limitations)
* Coding for a standard OCS system (which includes the 1mb slow Ram config imo, which was a real standard later on), and then changing one part (fast ram) is kind of nonsense, imo. You are having almost all the bad stuff of the standard configuration, but you are giving up its good things (the standardness of it). If you want that, then go full auto, and do turbo cards plus fast ram plus whatever.
* If you want more, then simply go for 1200-AGA. Which is also a (much lesser known) standard.
* Coding against a defined platform is more interesting for most coders in that field than just upgrading specs in what you just need at the moment for your game to work. Even Demo sceners are going back to pure OCS for the last years.
* It raises the respect for the Amiga as a retro platform and may interest coders from "the outside", who might notice that there is an interesting oldschool standard with unique restrictions to code up against, and not just a loose assortment of configurations, similar to a windows pc of the middle 90ies.

YMMV off course..

[Amigajay]

Originally Posted by AndNN

I really wish some developer/publisher released a game on OCS using fast memory that required at least 2mb of ram so that it would of forced users to upgrade. I'm sure if there was a killer game... say for example Super Stardust using EHB released in 1987/88 would of opened the doors up to fast memory use but unfortunately no-one had the balls to do it.

But in 2016 I see no reason not to use it... and it might actually make the scene a more interesting space.

There were some games that needed 2mb chip ram on OCS machines, but by the time games started needing more than 1mb the A1200 was out so they just used that platform instead and offered a cut down 1mb OCS version.

Fast ram esp in the 80s was too expensive to put in budget computers.

Again the Amiga was special because unlike a PC you didn't need to upgrade to the newest games on that platform.

Personally I like to see people use the hardware that was standard, if you add fast memory, faster cpu, you may as well developed for the Vampire and see what could be done with the AGA chipset, something I'm not against i just prefer the former.

Originally Posted by AndNN

Maybe games back in the day should of offered enhanced modes... going back to Super Stardust, which looked ok on OCS using 32 colours, would of been extra cool tapping into fast memory usage and EHB mode. May of been a good way to get people to upgrade to fast RAM.

Maybe you could consider this for Rygar?

Super Stardust was AGA only, Stardust was OCS and imo more impressive because of the limitations.

[AndNN]

I understand the purests point of view here... I understand it most than more people as I worked on a commercial cancelled Amiga project by a well known publisher in the 90s.

But my take on this is base it around what an Amiga 1000 had to offer. That could only have 512kb of chip and fast memory was the only option to upgrade from there. Now been the original Amiga that was released in 1985 surly has more weight to the argument of using fast memory usage. Also, the price of fast memory has no weight in the time of release because killer software sells hardware... look what Doom did for graphic card sales in the 90s. The sad fact is no developer/publisher had the balls to release a killer game requiring fast memory. And they did a not have the foresight to offer enhanced modes to games that took full advantage of fast memory.

So my take is fast memory could be purchased at the time so why not use it.

Edit

Better still if I released a new piece of software and said it was only for the Amiga 1000 then I would be justified to say if it needed more than 512kb of memory then the only choice is fast memory usage. Which actually makes it a better machine for purest thought. You can say that it does not count for the Amiga 500 but you cannot deny the value of it on an Amiga 1000. This in a strange way makes the Amiga 1000 a better machine on a purest level... so long as new software is only intended for said machine.

[Amigajay]

Originally Posted by AndNN

I understand the purests point of view here... I understand it most than more people as I worked on a commercial cancelled Amiga project by a well known publisher in the 90s.

But my take on this is base it around what an Amiga 1000 had to offer. That could only have 512kb of chip and fast memory was the only option to upgrade from there. Now been the original Amiga that was released in 1985 surly has more weight to the argument of using fast memory usage. Also, the price of fast memory has no weight in the time of release because killer software sells hardware... look what Doom did for graphic card sales in the 90s. The sad fact is no developer/publisher had the balls to release a killer game requiring fast memory. And they did a not have the foresight to offer enhanced modes to games that took full advantage of fast memory.

So my take is fast memory could be purchased at the time so why not use it.

Because the market wasn't there for companies to release games that work on a few percent of the market, heck even companies support the A500 more than the A1200 because software sales were bigger for quite a while, the Amiga and PC markets were totally different, we weren't being bullied into buying new hardware!
Btw Doom was software based, gfx cards didnt really take off until 3dfx in 97/98.

[AndNN]

Originally Posted by Amigajay

Because the market wasn't there for companies to release games that work on a few percent of the market, heck even companies support the A500 more than the A1200 because software sales were bigger for quite a while, the Amiga and PC markets were totally different, we weren't being bullied into buying new hardware!
Btw Doom was software based, gfx cards didnt really take off until 3dfx in 97/98.

Actually read my edit about the Amiga 1000. That was the first Amiga and in it's purest sense using fast memory is justified on that system.

Doom did sell graphics cards at the time. Getting fast VGA cards was a big thing back then, as well as upgrading CPUs. It may of been software but if your VGA card was crap then it did make things run more slowly.

[Amigajay]

Well if your going for purists for purists sake then the A1000 with 256k ram was the launch machine, it was indeed companies like EA and Psygnosis that pushed buyers into that 256k upgrade.

[sandruzzo]

I dont' think a little bit of fast mem will destroy the Magic of Amiga. Btw would be great to see what is capable to do with this little boost.

[AndNN]

Originally Posted by Amigajay

Well if your going for purists for purists sake then the A1000 with 256k ram was the launch machine, it was indeed companies like EA and Psygnosis that pushed buyers into that 256k upgrade.

That is my point exactly. I don't want to cause arguments about this type of thing.

For me personally I want to use classic OCS and use fast memory and explore what the machine could do. Been 2016 nothing is commercial anymore so I really don't want to be restricted by the concept of what was standard back in the day. The only constant is that what was available at the time and fast memory was there to be used.

And by doing this I may be able to pull off something unique - killer software that may of sold fast memory to users. I just feel that the Amiga had more to offer than what was commercially released. In away the system was never used to it's full potential and I believe that should be explored before no-one cares. Every old computer has been pushed to the limits, barring the Amiga because no-one will use fast memory and by doing so opens new avenues to explore. I think this is more exciting than been constrained.

OK, no more from me on fast ram usage

[Tigerskunk]

Originally Posted by AndNN

That is my point exactly. I don't want to cause arguments about this type of thing.

For me personally I want to use classic OCS and use fast memory and explore what the machine could do. Been 2016 nothing is commercial anymore so I really don't want to be restricted by the concept of what was standard back in the day. The only constant is that what was available at the time and fast memory was there to be used.

For probably around 97% of people who ever had something to do with the Amiga, the Amiga 500 was THE Amiga (and of these a good amount had the 1mb slow ram). Not the 1000 that came before, and not the 3000, 600, 1200 or the 4000 that came later. Let alone turbo cards with 68060s on it or PPC CPUs.

If you want to code something for the A500 with fast ram, then by all means go for it. But for me it will be uninteresting comparing your effort to to the rest of games software on the Amiga which were coded against that standard, since you are doing your own thing with better hardware.
And if I just want to play games with fancier gfx, I have enough modern consoles at home that fulfill that need. Or MAME.

But seeing somebody, who builds something that really goes up against what the original hardware was supposed to be capable of, is something magic to me.

So, in that sense, switching to fast ram for Rygar would be a completely weird decision after all these discussions in the thread and that passion that went into staying within classic OCS boundaries up to now.

[AndNN]

Originally Posted by Steril707

For probably around 97% of people who ever had something to do with the Amiga, the Amiga 500 was THE Amiga (and of these a good amount had the 1mb slow ram). Not the 1000 that came before, and not the 3000, 600, 1200 or the 4000 that came later. Let alone turbo cards with 68060s on it or PPC CPUs.

If you want to code something for the A500 with fast ram, then by all means go for it. But for me it will be uninteresting comparing your effort to to the rest of games software on the Amiga which were coded against that standard, since you are doing your own thing with better hardware.
And if I just want to play games with fancier gfx, I have enough modern consoles at home that fulfill that need. Or MAME.

But seeing somebody, who builds something that really goes up against what the original hardware was supposed to be capable of, is something magic to me.

So, in that sense, switching to fast ram for Rygar would be a completely weird decision after all these discussions in the thread and that passion that went into staying within classic OCS boundaries up to now.

I do agree with your points when the Amiga was commercial. But I think it would more interesting now to see how far a piece of hardware that was released in 1985 can be pushed.

You know, maybe a new category should be made for this purpose... then that's a standard that can be grouped together with new software to be compared against. Sure this new standard connot be compared to the classic. But at least exploring the machine can be accepted and compared to other like software. Instead of living in the past let's move forward a bit. And it will be fun seeing what can be done.

[Tigerskunk]

Originally Posted by AndNN

Instead of living in the past let's move forward a bit. And it will be fun seeing what can be done.

Let's say you are doing an arcade conversion of something, which previously was considered impossible to achieve on the raw OCS Amiga.

And now you consider that you want to use fast ram. Doesn't this negate the intention you had at the beginning?

It will not be that special anymore, since you are in some weird area where you cannot compare your efforts with these widely known boundaries that exist, but it will still look worse than other efforts that where done with more efficient machines, even Amigas.

If you code a game that looks better than "lion heart" on an OCS Amiga with 1mb slow, I will applaud you. If accomplish the same with fast RAM, I don't even know what to compare against anymore.

Still, if that's what you want to do, go for it. As an effort for a retro platform, it's just a huge amount more boring to me, personally.

And, by all means, this might be just my opinion on this matter..

So, go for it...

(btw, this line of thinking only applies to coding games and demos, imo. Desktop software can use all accelerators and fast(est) rams (ever) whatever. That's a whole different kind of thing to me)

[DanScott]

Originally Posted by Steril707

Let's say you are doing an arcade conversion of something, which previously was considered impossible to achieve on the raw OCS Amiga.

And now you consider that you want to use fast ram. Doesn't this negate the intention you had at the beginning?

It will not be that special anymore, since you are in some weird area where you cannot compare your efforts with these widely known boundaries that exist, but it will still look worse than other efforts that where done with more efficient machines, even Amigas.

If you code a game that looks better than "lion heart" on an OCS Amiga with 1mb slow, I will applaud you. If accomplish the same with fast RAM, I don't even know what to compare against anymore.

Still, if that's what you want to do, go for it. As an effort for a retro platform, it's just a huge amount more boring to me, personally.

And, by all means, this might be just my opinion on this matter..

So, go for it...

(btw, this line of thinking only applies to coding games and demos, imo. Desktop software can use all accelerators and fast(est) rams (ever) whatever. That's a whole different kind of thing to me)

All my current projects are developed for 1meg.. that's 512kchip + 512k of any other ram (chip/slow/fast)... i believe this is a realistic "target"

I am actually developing in a 1meg chip environment, so all code will be running in chip while developing.. therefore I don't rely on the extra speed of fast/fake fast/slow etc..