Amiga questions you've always been too embarrassed to ask - Page 53

Cobe · 16 September 2016, 03:11

That works. But I was thinking if there is a way that that disk could still be functional.
For example if I already created bootable dos disk with all files and than I just want that disk is shown as NDOS in WB.

And what about those disks that don't appear as NDOS but don't show all files, if any, when the disk is opened in WB. I guess they have altered root block, not just randomly trashed. And do they have regular dos bootblock?

Retro1234 · 16 September 2016, 03:54

You need a custom bootblock for the custom file system for it to be able to boot.

without coding knowlege you can have a mixed file system use Startup-Sequence to mount your file system working around block 40 the disk will be Dos in WB but the files on the custom filesystem wont be seen without the mountlist.

but I think there was a utility to do what you want maybe someone remembers or try the link below.
http://www.amiga-stuff.com/fs-creators-download.html

but it would be nice to have a hack of the AmigaDos bootblock that could use a different Root Block other than track 40 for booting.

Cobe · 16 September 2016, 07:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retro1234

without coding knowlege you can have a mixed file system use Startup-Sequence to mount your file system working around block 40 the disk will be Dos in WB but the files on the custom filesystem wont be seen without the mountlist.

But how can I have the same disk containing files written with two different file systems? All file systems that I'm aware of need the whole disk to be formatted in that format.

As for the link you wrote, I took a look and they all need coding and writing a loader.

Jope · 16 September 2016, 07:33

Yep, you can't create an ndos disk without your own code. If you trash the root block or move it, the computer cannot mount the disk when you boot off it and booting will fail immediately after reading in the standard boot block.

Retro1234 · 16 September 2016, 09:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobe

But how can I have the same disk containing files written with two different file systems? All file systems that I'm aware of need the whole disk to be formatted in that format.

As for the link you wrote, I took a look and they all need coding and writing a loader.

AmigaDos only really "needs" track 0 and track 40 - create a mountlist and try it working around track 40

: or copy a Amiga formated track 40 to a not dos disk - only for experimental and the disks seems to be Dos in WB but still boots the game when booted.

I never tried trackmo-dos do you need coding knowlege for T-DOS?

Bastich · 16 September 2016, 09:33

If you use a disk editor and rename the first listed file to df0: most directory utilities (including dir) go into a read loop which then lists multiple lines of df0: instead of the true file structure.

Haven't done this in a loooooong time mind.

Cobe · 16 September 2016, 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bastich

If you use a disk editor and rename the first listed file to df0: most directory utilities (including dir) go into a read loop which then lists multiple lines of df0: instead of the true file structure.

Haven't done this in a loooooong time mind.

Sounds like a nice trick but I wasn't able to pull it of. I created a blank disk, created a single dummy file, renamed it with disk editor to DF0: but WB,Dopus and dir show it regulary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retro1234

AmigaDos only really "needs" track 0 and track 40 - create a mountlist and try it working around track 40

I'm not sure if i get your idea.
When you say mountlist you mean regular mount list like for PC0:, DS0:, CF0: and similar?

I'm imagining the following scenario. We use track 0 and 40. But cause of AmigaDOS bootblock we then need startup-sequence, and files for mounting 'the other' file system from startup-sequence. So these files would use some more tracks. If that other system avoids all those tracks it can place files in its format on same disk without interfering with AmigaDOS. But can two file systems be mounted at the same time on same device? Or maybe it can just take over? Then after mounting 'the other' file system maybe we could change directory to TO0: ('the other' file system) in startup sequence and continue executing files....

This brings me to the other question I always wondered. Is startup sequence fully copied to ram after boot or is it read from disk partially? It seems to me like it's not copied.

Now I suppose if you have your own bootblock and track file system, and deliberately avoid track 40, you could be able to write AmigaDOS root block to it. I suppose your NDOS disk will boot with your system but WB will show fake files from root block you wrote. I guess that explains those disks that I mentioned that don't show all files, if any.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retro1234

I never tried trackmo-dos do you need coding knowlege for T-DOS?

Not specifically for using it. You can create T-Disk, copy files but you need to code MAIN prg that is the first thing called and executed from a bootblock.

idrougge · 17 September 2016, 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobe

This brings me to the other question I always wondered. Is startup sequence fully copied to ram after boot or is it read from disk partially? It seems to me like it's not copied.

Thomas Richter is more suited to answer this, but AFAIK, "Execute" preprocesses each script in order to replace symbols, which means they end up in RAM. Question is if the Startup-Sequence execution follows the same pattern.

Cobe · 17 September 2016, 17:57

And when you're already mentioning Execute. Whats for that T-command file or what was its name that's created after executing a script in T folder?

And why setting protection bit to script never worked for me? I thought if you set it that than you wouldn't need to Execute script with execute command but just run it and Amiga should know that it should Execute it.

daxb · 17 September 2016, 19:22

The Command-?-T?? files seems to be temporary scripts like startup-sequence. Would be nice to know more about it. Here they are created and deleted in SYS:T (3 each boot). Hence my .recycled directory is full of them. I didn`t managed it to redirect them to Ram:T.

Protection bit s (script) should work. What shows SnoopDOS if you try to launch such a script? It should open the script, Execute command and utility.library. At least here it does.

Cobe · 17 September 2016, 22:20

I gave up on s bit long ago. I tried it few times in the past. Probably I was always missing that lib and I never thought it could be just that so I never ran snoopdos... I'll have to give it a try once again.

Was utility.library included on WB disks?
And was S protection bit available since always? I mean from the first WBs and kickstarts?

idrougge · 18 September 2016, 03:44

I think S bit was introduced in 1.3, or even 2.0. It has always worked great for me. Use it every day.

Cobe · 18 September 2016, 06:11

I tried S bit again and now it works. Who knows why it wasn't working in the past when I tried...

s2325 · 03 October 2016, 10:30

Are B.C. Kid and Alfred Chicken somehow connected as both characters have 2 very similar attacks?

Amigajay · 03 October 2016, 11:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by s2325

Are B.C. Kid and Alfred Chicken somehow connected as both characters have 2 very similar attacks?

lol i think they dated once, maybe B.C. Kid showed Alfred Chicken some of his moves

dJOS · 09 October 2016, 22:47

Why do a1200 expansion boards always have the CPU installed facing downwards?

I'd have thought placing the CPU on the side facing up would be better for cooling?

Daedalus · 10 October 2016, 09:55

@dJOS

They don't always have them facing downwards - some have them on the rear of the board such as the Apollo '040 boards. You are correct that having the CPU on the top would help cooling, but in most cases the heat produced by CPUs isn't enough to cause problems when they're placed upside down.

One possible reason for many accelerators being that way is that it's easier and cheaper to manufacture a PCB if there are parts only on one side, so if you can fit everything on the same side (jumpers, A1200 edge connector, logic, SIMM socket, CPU, everything else) then it makes sense to do that unless something else is a higher priority such as cooling or space limitations.

dJOS · 10 October 2016, 10:20

Cheers for the explanation.

TroyWilkins · 10 October 2016, 11:02

Does anyone know the technical reasons why EHB mode was not available in the very early NTSC Amiga 1000 models? I'm guessing it was a change in Denise, but can anyone provide more information please?

Ahh, it appears Denise 8362 R5 was the one that didn't support EHB, according to http://amiga.resource.cx/mod/a1000.html but R6 onwards did, but that doesn't really tell me as much as I'd like to know...

slaapliedje · 10 October 2016, 17:34

I have been using my Atari Falcon a lot lately, and there are some basic things in GEM that I always wondered why they were missing in Workbench. Something like actually sanely organizing folders/files if you want to.. For whatever reason the 'snapshot window' never works for me, if I open the window and do 'snapshot to all' it works, but then my desktop is saved however as well. At least it sometimes works.

I think they tried to make everything so customizable that they didn't give good defaults. Another example is that while there is a shortcut for 'show all' there isn't a shortcut for 'Clean up by name' (though there is for clean up by column).

Anyone aware of the full reasoning for this?

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16 September 2016, 03:11	#1041
Cobe Registered User Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Belgrade / Serbia Age: 41 Posts: 1,004	That works. But I was thinking if there is a way that that disk could still be functional. For example if I already created bootable dos disk with all files and than I just want that disk is shown as NDOS in WB. And what about those disks that don't appear as NDOS but don't show all files, if any, when the disk is opened in WB. I guess they have altered root block, not just randomly trashed. And do they have regular dos bootblock?

16 September 2016, 03:54	#1042
Retro1234 Phone Homer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: 5150 Posts: 5,789	You need a custom bootblock for the custom file system for it to be able to boot. without coding knowlege you can have a mixed file system use Startup-Sequence to mount your file system working around block 40 the disk will be Dos in WB but the files on the custom filesystem wont be seen without the mountlist. but I think there was a utility to do what you want maybe someone remembers or try the link below. http://www.amiga-stuff.com/fs-creators-download.html but it would be nice to have a hack of the AmigaDos bootblock that could use a different Root Block other than track 40 for booting.

16 September 2016, 07:33	#1044
Jope - Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Helsinki / Finland Age: 43 Posts: 9,876	Yep, you can't create an ndos disk without your own code. If you trash the root block or move it, the computer cannot mount the disk when you boot off it and booting will fail immediately after reading in the standard boot block.

16 September 2016, 09:33	#1046
Bastich Registered User Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: UK Posts: 341	If you use a disk editor and rename the first listed file to df0: most directory utilities (including dir) go into a read loop which then lists multiple lines of df0: instead of the true file structure. Haven't done this in a loooooong time mind.

17 September 2016, 17:57	#1049
Cobe Registered User Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Belgrade / Serbia Age: 41 Posts: 1,004	And when you're already mentioning Execute. Whats for that T-command file or what was its name that's created after executing a script in T folder? And why setting protection bit to script never worked for me? I thought if you set it that than you wouldn't need to Execute script with execute command but just run it and Amiga should know that it should Execute it.

17 September 2016, 19:22	#1050
daxb Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 3,305	The Command-?-T?? files seems to be temporary scripts like startup-sequence. Would be nice to know more about it. Here they are created and deleted in SYS:T (3 each boot). Hence my .recycled directory is full of them. I didn`t managed it to redirect them to Ram:T. Protection bit s (script) should work. What shows SnoopDOS if you try to launch such a script? It should open the script, Execute command and utility.library. At least here it does.

17 September 2016, 22:20	#1051
Cobe Registered User Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Belgrade / Serbia Age: 41 Posts: 1,004	I gave up on s bit long ago. I tried it few times in the past. Probably I was always missing that lib and I never thought it could be just that so I never ran snoopdos... I'll have to give it a try once again. Was utility.library included on WB disks? And was S protection bit available since always? I mean from the first WBs and kickstarts?

18 September 2016, 03:44	#1052
idrougge Registered User Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Stockholm Posts: 4,342	I think S bit was introduced in 1.3, or even 2.0. It has always worked great for me. Use it every day.

18 September 2016, 06:11	#1053
Cobe Registered User Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Belgrade / Serbia Age: 41 Posts: 1,004	I tried S bit again and now it works. Who knows why it wasn't working in the past when I tried...

03 October 2016, 10:30	#1054
s2325 Zone Friend Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Gargore Age: 43 Posts: 17,789	Are B.C. Kid and Alfred Chicken somehow connected as both characters have 2 very similar attacks?

09 October 2016, 22:47	#1056
dJOS Registered User Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 888	Why do a1200 expansion boards always have the CPU installed facing downwards? I'd have thought placing the CPU on the side facing up would be better for cooling?

10 October 2016, 09:55	#1057
Daedalus Registered User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Dublin, then Glasgow Posts: 6,369	@dJOS They don't always have them facing downwards - some have them on the rear of the board such as the Apollo '040 boards. You are correct that having the CPU on the top would help cooling, but in most cases the heat produced by CPUs isn't enough to cause problems when they're placed upside down. One possible reason for many accelerators being that way is that it's easier and cheaper to manufacture a PCB if there are parts only on one side, so if you can fit everything on the same side (jumpers, A1200 edge connector, logic, SIMM socket, CPU, everything else) then it makes sense to do that unless something else is a higher priority such as cooling or space limitations.

10 October 2016, 10:20	#1058
dJOS Registered User Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 888	Cheers for the explanation.

10 October 2016, 11:02	#1059
TroyWilkins Registered User Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 548	Does anyone know the technical reasons why EHB mode was not available in the very early NTSC Amiga 1000 models? I'm guessing it was a change in Denise, but can anyone provide more information please? Ahh, it appears Denise 8362 R5 was the one that didn't support EHB, according to http://amiga.resource.cx/mod/a1000.html but R6 onwards did, but that doesn't really tell me as much as I'd like to know...

10 October 2016, 17:34	#1060
slaapliedje Registered User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Utah, USA Posts: 516	I have been using my Atari Falcon a lot lately, and there are some basic things in GEM that I always wondered why they were missing in Workbench. Something like actually sanely organizing folders/files if you want to.. For whatever reason the 'snapshot window' never works for me, if I open the window and do 'snapshot to all' it works, but then my desktop is saved however as well. At least it sometimes works. I think they tried to make everything so customizable that they didn't give good defaults. Another example is that while there is a shortcut for 'show all' there isn't a shortcut for 'Clean up by name' (though there is for clean up by column). Anyone aware of the full reasoning for this?

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