Crappy C64 screen resolution

[Daedalus]

Originally Posted by TCD

16 colours in 8 shades, so 128.

Most machines could do 16 colours in 16 shades, so 256 colours in total. It's only early 400/800 machines that lack the extra colour modes, like how early A1000s lack EHB mode. Later 400/800 machines and all XL/XE machines had the newer chip enabling 256 colours, and like Denise, it's a simple straight swap to upgrade.

[TCD]

Originally Posted by Daedalus

Most machines could do 16 colours in 16 shades, so 256 colours in total.

I'm always not sure when the 'XE/XL' models came out. I went with 128 colours as I wanted to match the '1982' remark by Megalomania.

[clebin]

Originally Posted by clebin

"No other 8bit machine can produce anything as stunning as 64 Law of the West."

Incidentally, that R-Type screenshot is from 8-bit machine, the PC-Engine. My feeling is, if you burst into a thread being generally patronising and rude, you should make sure your argument is watertight first.

[TCD]

Originally Posted by clebin

My feeling is, if you burst into a thread being generally patronising and rude, you should make sure your argument is watertight first.

[Megalomaniac]

Debatable whether the PC Engine (or TurboGrafx-16 as it was known in America) is really an 8-bit machine, but still. I think we've seen enough evidence that the C64 doesn't have a monopoly on stunning pixel art for 8-bit computers, whichever mode you use - even the Spectrum is much more competitive than you might assume.

As far as non-cartoony Amstrad CPC graphics that look great, how about Shadows of Sergoth, Infernal House, La Culotte de Zelda and Le Maître des Âmes. Even as a Spectrum owner and fan, I can see that games ported from the Spectrum to the CPC didn't show off its full capabilities - especially as the CPC couldn't do everything the Spectrum could, though it could do plenty for itself (including 16 colours, in 160x200). Conversely, the C64 benefitted from almost all its games being designed around it from day one. And don't tell me that the C64 could match CPC Pinball Dreams (any more than the CPC could match C64 Sam's Journey)...

[Daedalus]

Originally Posted by TCD

I'm always not sure when the 'XE/XL' models came out. I went with 128 colours as I wanted to match the '1982' remark by Megalomania.

Yeah, I think they were 1983, but the GTIA chips were also fitted to the original 400/800s from 1980 or 1981 IIRC.

[saimon69]

And you can see the REAL ancestor of the Amiga in action there

[Megalomaniac]

(This may merit a separate thread, but)

Aside from seemingly being limited to 2 colours per scanline, what other limitations did the Atari 8-bit family have compared to the C64? Is there a further reason why they didn't remain competitive for as long?

[clebin]

Originally Posted by megalomaniac

debatable whether the pc engine (or turbografx-16 as it was known in america) is really an 8-bit machine, but still.

i think we've seen enough evidence that the c64 doesn't have a monopoly on stunning pixel art for 8-bit computers, whichever mode you use - even the spectrum is much more competitive than you might assume.

We're really lucky to be able to use all these machines now and not have to pick sides. You only really hurt yourself by being too blinkered to appreciate platforms other than your favourite (well, except the forum users who have to listen to your crap)

Owning a couple of CPCs, C64s and Atari 8-bits has given me new appreciation of each system, especially the Atari which I have real soft spot for now. It's also made me appreciate the Spectrum more too, because I see why certain decisions were taken. Previously, I maybe had a bit of an inferiority complex with the Spectrum with the colour clash and so on, but actually none of the machines are perfect and none of them are crap. The only way to get the full experience of the 8-bit era is to use and enjoy each of them. A bit cheesy but it's true.

[clebin]

Originally Posted by Megalomaniac

(This may merit a separate thread, but)

Aside from seemingly being limited to 2 colours per scanline, what other limitations did the Atari 8-bit family have compared to the C64? Is there a further reason why they didn't remain competitive for as long?

I don't think the 2 colours per scan-line is quite right. I'm pretty sure you can have a lot more depending on the graphics mode and other tricks, but a real Atari guy would know more than me.

The sprites and sound on the C64 are better while the Atari has a faster CPU and a bigger palette. The C64 probably edges it, but I think the big factor is Tramiel and his aggressive price war. The original Atari 400/800 cost an arm an to manufacture and the cost-reduced 800XL came too late. Once the C64 had the momentum, only a C64-killer could've pulled Atari back into contention, and so things just drifted from there (and the reason other platforms fared better is mostly geographical)

[TCD]

Found this on FB this morning:

Miryam the Medusa
Commodore64 Graphic (NUFLI)
by Grass (of Avatar, Digital Monastery, Hokuto Force, Lethargy, Resistance)
1st placed @ Mixed Graphics Competition at Arok Party 2024
download: https://csdb.dk/release/?id=243798

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by CCCP alert

If you don't know you don't know, technically below EGA/ST/A1000 no other machine can display C64 Law of the West. It is also as ground breaking as Defender of the Crown in the evolution of going beyond pew pew little simple 8 bit games.

Defender of the Crown

C64


EGA

[TCD]

Apple IIGS

Amiga

(btw he mentioned 'below EGA' as in 'not including EGA')

[malko]

Originally Posted by TCD

Yep. There are examples where they put the palette to good use though. For example in Alternate Reality: The City [ Show youtube player ]

Didn't know this game. It looks like really interesting and find the "karaoke" part really funny. I am sure the ones who played it had the "songs" in mind for several days

[TCD]

Originally Posted by malko

Didn't know this game. It looks like really interesting and find the "karaoke" part really funny. I am sure the ones who played it had the "songs" in mind for several days

Yep, that song feature is great I don't think it appears in other versions of the game (maybe somebody knows?).

As clebin mentioned every system has some gems that should be discovered and played I didn't pay attention to the Atari 8-bit computer systems until about a year ago and what I found so far is quite amazing.

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by TCD

btw he mentioned 'below EGA' as in 'not including EGA'

Your screenshots confirm that the EGA version is worse than the C64 version, which managed to get closer to the look of the original despite having lower horizontal resolution.

So in this case we can say 'including EGA'.

[TCD]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

Your screenshots confirm that the EGA version is worse than the C64 version

But... but the resolution of the EGA version is much higher

[Zak]

EGA version looks better. Clearly. You're all biased. Look at the rider and the tents!

[TCD]

Maybe 'better' is subjective and depends on what you think matters more. Just a thought.

[Megalomaniac]

Maybe people are drawn to graphics which look more like the machine they had? Or, maybe they were drawn to a particular machine in the first place because of its graphical style? None of the 8-bits (or pre-VGA PC, or ST, or Apple IIGS) could do everything well.

Personally (having owned neither BITD) I prefer the C64 screenshot to the EGA one there, partly because of the clouds and partly due to the lack of that eye-searing magenta (which was my least favourite thing about Spectrum visuals, incidentally - if only the 8th colour had been orange, or grey, or (dare I say it) even brown). Incidentally, here's the French-only (and much later) Amstrad version of DOTC for comparison - https://www.cpc-power.com/index.php?page=detail&num=699

Sprites and sound were two of the C64's big strengths, scrolling being the other really obvious one. Considering that the developers were largely different, is it pure coincidence that they're also the Amiga's big advantages over the ST? Perhaps the ex-Atari guys who became Amiga Inc did consciously look at the areas where the C64 did lead the Atari 8-bits?