DaemonClaw: Origins of Nnar

[Tigerskunk]

Random thoughts on this topic:

* if the "general Amiga public" thought Daemon Claw was an Amiga exclusive, it's probably not the fault of the public, but something with the communication went very wrong here.

* No doubts about Metro Siege getting finished and being fabulous.

* I think the "engine" is finished, but every level is built so unique, it just takes a long time to have a whole game in the end. It's more like every level has its own engine. Maybe Bitbeam Mike starts to understand now why most other game devs on the Amiga are going a bit more with a straight route for their projects..

[sokolovic]

I also thinks that the general exigence for a game have increased now.
You cannot just make a technically impressive game without a solid gameplay behind, as it was the case in the old Amiga splendor days.
We're not in a rush. It is a blessing that some people still dedicate their time to make Amiga games in 2023.
I've waited more than 30 years to have a good beat'em'up on the Amiga, I can wait some years more.

[tarr]

Very few recent Amiga games surprised me: Rygar (even if it was AGA only), Kung Fu Mater Devil's Temple, Enviya and maybe the Creeping Me Out project (even if it is not out yet and even if it is running on the scorpion Engine).
Almost every Scorpion Engine game I saw it's just slightly better than old days PD games, plus some ripped graphics.

A Kickstarter for an Amiga Game would be successful only if it was for a game like Lionheart II or Turrican IV or some projects on a par or better with such milestones (Turican II, Lionheart, Jim Power, Kid Chaos, Fighting Spirit and so on).

The WOW factor could be achieved only with a non AGA game for a 1MB OCS/ECS Amiga which surpasses the likes of Lionheart.

[logo]

Originally Posted by tarr

Very few recent Amiga games surprised me: Rygar (even if it was AGA only), Kung Fu Mater Devil's Temple, Enviya and maybe the Creeping Me Out project (even if it is not out yet and even if it is running on the scorpion Engine).
Almost every Scorpion Engine game I saw it's just slightly better than old days PD games, plus some ripped graphics.

A Kickstarter for an Amiga Game would be successful only if it was for a game like Lionheart II or Turrican IV or some projects on a par or better with such milestones (Turican II, Lionheart, Jim Power, Kid Chaos, Fighting Spirit and so on).

The WOW factor could be achieved only with a non AGA game for a 1MB OCS/ECS Amiga which surpasses the likes of Lionheart.

What about Tynius and Tiny Bobble ?
King's Valley, Boxx games, Jackal, Maria Renard and Wonder Boy for example, are to my eyes miles away from most of PD games...

[sokolovic]

And Castlevania AGA...

[Tigerskunk]

How many of these are original games with non ripped graphics running with 50 fps on vanilla setups?

Now compare that to the C64, Megadrive and ZX Spectrum homebrew scenes.

[UltraNarwhal]

Originally Posted by tarr

A Kickstarter for an Amiga Game would be successful only if it was for a game like Lionheart II or Turrican IV or some projects on a par or better with such milestones (Turican II, Lionheart, Jim Power, Kid Chaos, Fighting Spirit and so on).

DaemonClaw is currently at about 1000 backers for a userbase that is bigger than Amiga.
For an Amiga (Lionheart II or Turrican IV) Kickstarter to be successful you'd need 10,000 (£15 pledge) backers to support a team of 3 working fully for 18 months.

[Samurai_Crow]

Originally Posted by tarr

Very few recent Amiga games surprised me: Rygar (even if it was AGA only), Kung Fu Mater Devil's Temple, Enviya and maybe the Creeping Me Out project (even if it is not out yet and even if it is running on the scorpion Engine).
Almost every Scorpion Engine game I saw it's just slightly better than old days PD games, plus some ripped graphics.

A Kickstarter for an Amiga Game would be successful only if it was for a game like Lionheart II or Turrican IV or some projects on a par or better with such milestones (Turican II, Lionheart, Jim Power, Kid Chaos, Fighting Spirit and so on).

The WOW factor could be achieved only with a non AGA game for a 1MB OCS/ECS Amiga which surpasses the likes of Lionheart.

Hopes are unreasonably high, indeed.

[Tigerskunk]

Originally Posted by UltraNarwhal

DaemonClaw is currently at about 1000 backers for a userbase that is bigger than Amiga.
For an Amiga (Lionheart II or Turrican IV) Kickstarter to be successful you'd need 10,000 (£15 pledge) backers to support a team of 3 working fully for 18 months.

That depends a bit on how much you already have in place.

Judging by "Demons of Asteborg", I am very sure they have a very capable engine for the Megadrive already. And Daemon Claw looks a lot less complicated than that game.

[sokolovic]

Originally Posted by UltraNarwhal

DaemonClaw is currently at about 1000 backers for a userbase that is bigger than Amiga.
For an Amiga (Lionheart II or Turrican IV) Kickstarter to be successful you'd need 10,000 (£15 pledge) backers to support a team of 3 working fully for 18 months.

As I said before, every kickstarters for the Amiga harvested much more than the initial goal. Granted it was for hardware components but unless you have a valid comparison with a solid polished proposed Amiga game for original hardware (OCS or AGA) that did not achieve its goal, it seems to me a bit difficult to anticipe a possible failure without even trying.

1000 kickstarters for a multi platform Steam/Megadrive/Neo Geo game doesn't seems an outstanding number for me (or unreachable for an Amiga only game, lett even a Steam/Amiga game).

[tarr]

Originally Posted by logo

What about Tynius and Tiny Bobble ?

Oh, yes. They showed how to make a proper arcade conversion. It would have been a dream to have such quality software back in the days, and this level of quality coding would have rised the bar a lot in those days.

Originally Posted by logo

King's Valley, Boxx games, Jackal, Maria Renard and Wonder Boy for example, are to my eyes miles away from most of PD games...

King's Valley is juts an 8 bit game. Well done, but not "Amiga". An "Amiga" game is something that is better and different than a Snes or Mega Drive game. Turrican and Lionheart are Amiga arcade good games.

Boxx: I would rather play Zool, which I hate a lot. Obviously, if I'd coded Boxx games I would be proud, since I cannot code, but this is not the type of product I would pay € 20 for on a kickstarter.

Maria Renard: Ripped Graphics, scorpion engine stuff.

Wonder Boy: haven't tested it.

Castelvania Aga: Very Nice graphics, but usual Scorpion engine mess and AGA only. A real Amiga Castelvania should run on OCS like, for example, Bonk by Factor 5.

[logo]

@tarr

I really invite you to play the scorpion versions of Boxx games, they're so much better to play than Zool or Lionheart, because they're focus on fun and playability.

[tarr]

Originally Posted by logo

@tarr

I really invite you to play the scorpion versions of Boxx games, they're so much better to play than Zool or Lionheart, because they're focus on fun and playability.

I invite you to play Lionheart, which is miles away from Zool in terms of gameplay, depth and game design achievements and light years away from BOXX, which seems a casual android game. Fun, maybe, but please...

[logo]

I played Lionheart when I was young, I didn't like it much. it looks great but the gameplay is average. I tried to dig further into it maybe 10 years ago and I didn't like it much more.
You seem focus on technical achievement, but I'm not. I had 10 times more fun with any of the Boxx games serie, or King's Valley. Different players, different tastes...

[tarr]

Saying that Lionheart's gameplay is "Average" is so incredibly wrong. You have large maps, a saurcerful of secrets. a hidden level and an alternative ending (how many games did that back in the day), a fully responsice two buttons control system with a variety ov moves uncommon for a platform. A dyno riding section, a dragon flying section, incredible graphics and atmosphere, wonderful music and sounds, impressive boss fights, speed and exploration at the same time, game physics, balanced difficulty, difficulty levels that change the game experience by expanding the levels.

Oh, come on... Boxxx is nice, but it is a much, much, much more streamlined game, just a little bit better than Tearaway Thomas, and not able to compare to any good 8 bit platform game of the old days.

[Tigerskunk]

Originally Posted by logo

You seem focus on technical achievement, but I'm not. I had 10 times more fun with any of the Boxx games serie, or King's Valley. Different players, different tastes...

"Technical achievement" and the lack of that in modern Amiga dev is exactly what we are discussing here, yes.

No one can deny you from enjoying the games you mentioned, but neither is taste debatable, nor do we intend to.

So, bringing this up here is just moving goalposts.

[acidbottle]

Originally Posted by tarr

Saying that Lionheart's gameplay is "Average" is so incredibly wrong. You have large maps, a saurcerful of secrets. a hidden level and an alternative ending (how many games did that back in the day), a fully responsice two buttons control system with a variety ov moves uncommon for a platform. A dyno riding section, a dragon flying section, incredible graphics and atmosphere, wonderful music and sounds, impressive boss fights, speed and exploration at the same time, game physics, balanced difficulty, difficulty levels that change the game experience by expanding the levels.

Oh, come on... Boxxx is nice, but it is a much, much, much more streamlined game, just a little bit better than Tearaway Thomas, and not able to compare to any good 8 bit platform game of the old days.

You can debate game tastes on other threads I guess, but here I agree with logo, Lionheart is a bit meh to play, despite it looking very nice. I did not enjoy playing it.

"but usual Scorpion Engine mess" coming across as eliteist there, with a tiny hint of anti game engine agenda. Actually not all SE projects are a hot mess, most of them are pretty decent, 1 or 2 are actually exceptional. Boxx won an award and Rastan has used remastered graphics and runs very well indeed on 1MB OCS. Without Scorpion these games would not exist at all. The engine has breathed a bit of new creative life to a dead platform.

However, it is a forum for opinions so you know, we each have our own!

[saimon69]

Is the usual: a non-indifferent mass of vocal users seems to want cinemaware or factor 5 quality as MINIMUM, and for free

[tarr]

Originally Posted by saimon69

Is the usual: a non-indifferent mass of vocal users seems to want cinemaware or factor 5 quality as MINIMUM, and for free

I do not want anything for free, and yes, I would like to see top quality products that really show the Amiga capabilities. It is not only from a gamer's point of view. We do not love the amiga for casual games. If I want a nice causal game I use my android phone.
It's a cultural matter: the desire to see tha Amiga do what we always dreamt it coiuld do, buy just rarely witnessed for a number of reasons.

[Predseda]

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