Emulation vs the Real Thing

[Graham Humphrey]

Originally Posted by Lagoth

Even if the configs were wrong, this shouldn't cause the emulator to crash/hang the host machine, at worst only the guest machine should crash/hang.

I can't remember too many people experiencing this problem...

[Retro-Nerd]

There is no need to download working .uae configs. Use the quickstart option to start your prefered machine.

Yes, WinUAE crashes sometimes, mostly the new Beta's. But that's normal. It doesn't freeze or crash your PC.

[Hungry Horace]

Originally Posted by Lagoth

Why, for mentioning that it has these bugs? Wouldn't it be more stupid for me to recommend something that is not working properly? Searching through previous threads I see that the problem has been experienced by other people also. Why is there a reluctance by Toni and apparently others to acknowledge that there may be bugs and to investigate and fix them? Most coders are willing to acknowledge that there may be bugs in their software, and investigate and fix reported bugs, this is normal practice. If he can't fix it, fair enough, but at least he should document the fact that the bug exists, instead of everyone pretending there's no problem.

then why not detail and report the bugs which are obviously quite specific to your setup to the author, (otherwise we would all be making the same complaint) rather than insultingly accusing them of "refusing" to fix bugs?

i encounter bugs in winuae yes, but since they do not particualrly hinder my usage of it, i havent found the time to document the reproduction of said-bugs, particularly given that i beta-test other projects already.

a bit of common sense... and less of the attitude. please.

[turrican3]

Winuae is more powerfull than a true amiga take less space, it has 4 channels option with this option the sound is for me better than a real amiga if toni could add "maxim stepin's hq2x" filter like with mame the visual will be improved (this my opinion ).But for the rest winuae is awesome and it's more difficult to emulate all the amiga panel of computers than emul a gameboy or a megradrive toni did a huge job.

It doesn't freeze or crash your PC.

It certainly does here. I think you must have meant to say "It doesn't freeze or crash *my* PC."

Originally Posted by Hungry Horace

then why not detail and report the bugs which are obviously quite specific to your setup to the author, (otherwise we would all be making the same complaint) rather than insultingly accusing them of "refusing" to fix bugs?

Other people have already done this and the bug has been ignored. Why would anything change if I was to put in another bug report which would be very similar to the one someone else already submitted? I suspect it would likely be a waste of my time to do so, considering the fact that this has already been done by other(s). Just because a bug doesn't manifest on every single person's system doesn't mean the bug isn't there. It certainly manifests on *some* systems, so clearly there is a bug there.

[Hungry Horace]

maybe the bug is particularly difficult to fix? especially since you seem to have more knowledge on it than anyone else on this forum. I certainly have not heard any specific details of this complaint, dispite reading many amiga forums largely centered around users of winuae... usually the odd mention of a few bugs/breakages, but nothing to the extent of which you seem to have encountered......

But unfortunately WinUAE is rubbish, it crashes the host after 2-3 minutes on average. And the sound emulation is broken.

it seems to me this comment assumes this to happen to everybody, which is quite clearly not the case, and as a result you have wrongly branded the whole of winuae "rubbish".

the assumption that it is a waste of your time to report bugs hardly aids the situation does it? my point is simply that if you arent willing to do anything about it, dont assume someone else will do it for you. If you want a bug fixed because it is -that- much of a hinderence, you must be willing to do something about it yourself. Reproduce the bug on demand, cite settings, hardware and anything else you can think of for a bug report. you claim it is "already reported" but how can you claim know the full details of that report, and guarentee the problem would be fixed on your own machine, based on the bug report of someone else? put simply... you cant.


I very much doubt any such bug is being "ignored" , but Toni would know more about that than i. however, i can say i think its a bit rude to accuse any author of willingly saying "f**k it" to any well documented (something which i still do not beleive this bug to be) problem.

[Retro-Nerd]

Originally Posted by Lagoth

It certainly does here. I think you must have meant to say "It doesn't freeze or crash *my* PC."

No, i would say: It DOESN'T crash Toni's PC, and that counts. Look for better PC driver instead.

[Ironclaw]

Not mine either... and NEVER has in all the years I've been using WinUAE.

[Konrad]

Originally Posted by Lagoth

WinUAE crashes MY pc, therefore it's rubbish. It can't be a fault of my system installation, because there are 2 or 3 other users out there where WinUAE crashes the system. The fact that WinUAE runs stable for most users doesn't prove me wrong.

At least that is how it sounds to me . Seriously though, I never had WinUAE crashing one of my PCs. In fact most WinUAE users are happy with the stability. You should really consider that the fault could be on your end (i.e. your system).

Originally Posted by Hungry Horace

maybe the bug is particularly difficult to fix? especially since you seem to have more knowledge on it than anyone else on this forum. I certainly have not heard any specific details of this complaint, dispite reading many amiga forums largely centered around users of winuae... usually the odd mention of a few bugs/breakages, but nothing to the extent of which you seem to have encountered......

If it isn't fixable, fair enough but at least it should be documented, there is no reason not to document it.

it seems to me this comment assumes this to happen to everybody, which is quite clearly not the case, and as a result you have wrongly branded the whole of winuae "rubbish".

I'm judging on my personal experience with it. I've used lots of emulators and none of them do this.

the assumption that it is a waste of your time to report bugs hardly aids the situation does it? my point is simply that if you arent willing to do anything about it, dont assume someone else will do it for you. If you want a bug fixed because it is -that- much of a hinderence, you must be willing to do something about it yourself. Reproduce the bug on demand, cite settings, hardware and anything else you can think of for a bug report. you claim it is "already reported" but how can you claim know the full details of that report, and guarentee the problem would be fixed on your own machine, based on the bug report of someone else? put simply... you cant.

Unless there are multiple bugs with similar symptoms, it has already been reported. eg. "WinUAE hard hangs" at http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=27307
I also found many other bug reports but that one seems to be the closest one. I know the details of the report because I have read the thread. I can't guarantee that it is an identical bug but it certainly would be a coincidence to have 2 such similar bugs in 1 program. In any event, the fact that that bug still has yet to be documented or fixed 4 months later despite several new WinUAE versions doesn't inspire confidence in whatever bug-tracking system he uses.

I can reproduce the bug, I just have to start UAE and wait a couple of minutes. The random factor is how long it lasts before dying, at times it doesn't even finish booting the OS, other times I can get up to 5 minutes or so before it dies. I have tried various settings, which don't have any correlation to the length of time, so it doesn't seem to be settings-related.

I very much doubt any such bug is being "ignored" , but Toni would know more about that than i. however, i can say i think its a bit rude to accuse any author of willingly saying "f**k it" to any well documented (something which i still do not beleive this bug to be) problem.

Indeed it isn't well-documented, there is no mention of it anywhere at the WinUAE site. If I see a willingness to investigate and fix bugs I'll report them, otherwise why bother. Don't you think it's a bit rude to imply that someone is lying just because you can't reproduce their bug? (Or haven't bothered to try to reproduce it, more likely.)

I recommend buying a new PC.

What a dickhead comment. I don't see him suggesting this to people that have reported other bugs, only this bug. Is that what he does every time one of his programs doesn't work properly, he buys a new computer? I guess he does this everytime he has too much spyware too? Do you see my point that he doesn't appear to take bug reports seriously? Just wait until there is a bug that affects YOU, I'm sure you will be thrilled to buy a new computer when the old one works fine for every program except one.

Yet, I have gone back to using v1.2.0. as that version doesn't freeze like the new versions. I am using UAE mostly for coding some stuff and it's a bit annoying always having to kill UAE and restart it instead of just resetting the emulated Amiga once my code bugs out. I can send you a piece of code that triggers the bug if you are interested.

More confirmation that there is such a bug. Doesn't look like Toni was ever interested in fixing it. Lame. Now, why the hell would I bother doing a bug report if this is the attitude towards bugs? Why not take some pride in your work Toni and make it run stable before adding lots of features that no one uses?

[Adropac2]

Iv'e changed a little regarding this.Always loved emulation of any machine but it was only when i got my XBox running Winuaex that i started using the Amiga a lot more in emulation - closer for me to the real thing because i run it on my tv and the scrolling is exact and unlike what i could ever get on the pc(i guess it's possible to achieve perfect scrolling but i could only ever get smooth blur).
These days however i care less about the exactness of the scrolling and have been using ClassicWB on Winuae PC.It looks and feels really nice to be running the Amiga this way.Got 3 A1200's also and they are my pride - flashcards as hardrives are very cool and i think i would regret not having a real machine.That said though , Winuae is one stunning emulator that means you really don't need to have a real machine should it need to be that way.I'm just glad i got loads of options as for me each setup has it's advantages.

[Hungry Horace]

Originally Posted by Lagoth

If it isn't fixable, fair enough but at least it should be documented, there is no reason not to document it.

who is to say Toni doesnt have it documented? if as YOU say, its "definately" known...then he would have the details. if you think he doesnt, do a bug report.

Unless there are multiple bugs with similar symptoms, it has already been reported. eg. "WinUAE hard hangs" at http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=27307
I also found many other bug reports but that one seems to be the closest one. I know the details of the report because I have read the thread. I can't guarantee that it is an identical bug but it certainly would be a coincidence to have 2 such similar bugs in 1 program.

still all assumption.

Indeed it isn't well-documented, there is no mention of it anywhere at the WinUAE site.

errr why does it have to be? at the end of the day, the only person who needs details on bugs is Toni, and he doesnt have to publish all the details on site. if there HAS been a full bug report (which you are clearly too stubborn to do youself, in spite of your willingness to call all of Toni's work pointless) then he will have details. but unless you do it yourself, you can have no guarentees he has the details, and that's your own fault.

Don't you think it's a bit rude to imply that someone is lying just because you can't reproduce their bug? (Or haven't bothered to try to reproduce it, more likely.)

excuse me? when did i say you were lieing? did i say the bug "isnt there"? oh wait, i didnt.... just that the way you have reacted to encountering it is somewhat laughable. i may have said your attidude sucks... because frankly it does.

More confirmation that there is such a bug. Doesn't look like Toni was ever interested in fixing it. Lame. Now, why the hell would I bother doing a bug report if this is the attitude towards bugs? Why not take some pride in your work Toni and make it run stable before adding lots of features that no one uses?

see what i mean? frankly i shant bother from here, because you clearly dont want to listen.

errr why does it have to be? at the end of the day, the only person who needs details on bugs is Toni, and he doesnt have to publish all the details on site. if there HAS been a full bug report (which you are clearly too stubborn to do youself, in spite of your willingness to call all of Toni's work pointless) then he will have details. but unless you do it yourself, you can have no guarentees he has the details, and that's your own fault.

I beg to differ. It's normal practice that if a program is released with known bugs, or bugs are found after release, that bugs are listed eg. at the website; this is simply a courtesy to the users, and serves several purposes, eg. enabling users to work around the problem and therefore not having to encounter the bug, avoiding duplicate bug reports, etc. Eg. this is how it is done on SourceForge. (For emulators, it is also usual to list known incompatibilities, not necessarily for specific games etc. but a general "subsystems that aren't emulated" lists, etc.) No purpose is served by keeping bugs secret, the "security by obscurity" principle doesn't apply unless it is an exploitable vulnerability.

I'm willing to do a formal bug report in case this wasn't done by the other people who have experienced this bug. I'm not sure what format he'd like it in though, I assume he wants it done in a formal way? As I've already reported it informally in this thread and clearly that is not considered a bug report, so I shall do a formal one.

I did just notice that a new version was just released today (1.4.2a), so I will ensure it still happens before submitting such a report. From the changelog it does look like it may have been fixed, that would be great.

[Sensi]

Masturbation is not bad. Not bad. But real thing is real thing, man. Yeah.

[Ironclaw]

Well, the real thing can cost you money, can give you nasty, in some cases life threatering deceases and lots more.... while masturbation can not...


edit:
In other words, use WinUAE, it's cheaper etc.

Nope, still no good.

Emulator hangs, repeatably, whilst booting AmigaOS. Fortunately, it's not killing the whole system, but the emulator is still dying.

At least the old version usually got further than that.

This emulator is going from bad to worse I'm afraid. Doesn't anyone test these before they are inflicted upon the world?

[Retro-Nerd]

Dude, i have no idea what you are talking about. Maybe you should re-install your PC OS. WinUAE boots all preinstalled Amiga OS systems without problems.

[Calgor]

I use both emulation and real.

Emulation is a lot more FLEXIBLE using just the "one" machine, in so many ways as described by others above. And I can take it on the road with me.

However, the real thing is a lot SMOOTHER in both graphics and sound quality (i.e. 50 fps means exactly 50 fps, not 49.5 or 50.5 due to windoze process priorities). Plus when you need something that needs the speed of a 68060, you need the real thing (for now...). So I prefer games on the real thing (with VGA monitor of course). Also emulation though very close is not (yet) perfect.

Keeping it objective.

[Coagulus]

Wasn't this thread about Emulation vs the Real Thing and not a place to moan about the new UAE not working?

Paul banned Alyria he had same ip as Fortrax aka Minious. The tone was similar to this Lagoth though. Who, just as Alyria did, has joined to moan about WinUAE not working and that it's awful/getting worse/toni doesn't care etc..... and yet is also reluctant to provide evidence so it can be fixed. Hmmm.

Trying to get back on topic, I like WinUAE, it does many things my real Amiga's cant. Mind you I still dig them out (very) occasionally but purely for the nostalgia of attaching the leads, finding the disk is corrupt and other joys! Also playing the odd game!

[edit] whoops Calgor, didn't notice you'd reeled it back into on topic already!

[shillard]

Originally Posted by Lagoth

Nope, still no good.

Emulator hangs, repeatably, whilst booting AmigaOS. Fortunately, it's not killing the whole system, but the emulator is still dying.

At least the old version usually got further than that.

This emulator is going from bad to worse I'm afraid. Doesn't anyone test these before they are inflicted upon the world?

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