Final Fight: Enhanced

[Iskbob]

Hi Brick Nash,

I really enjoyed Final Fight Enhanced. I think it's a sizeable improvement over the original Amiga version and a decent release all round. Well done on getting it completed!

After playing your game I was inspired to do some experimenting with color quantization and used some of the Final Fight arcade backgrounds rips with a limited color palette - 14 colors. I've attached some examples below.

I don't think the visuals in your version are terrible by any means, but the color choices just don't seem quite close enough vs the original game. I'd like to offer to help to get them a bit closer if possible.

Should they turn out ok, I'll be happy to share the results here and then maybe for someone in the community to pixel edit them for some further fine tuning. I can't promise I'll be able to deliver, as I'll just be experimenting to see where I can take this, but willing to give it a try to see what I can do.

If the backgrounds were ever gotten to a point where they might be good enough, would you be happy to consider using them if you're continuously improving the game over time?

I assume you're using 15 colors onscreen and have 1 reserved for the copper. It will be useful to have some color palette details for the sprites per level - if you're using a 6-8 color scheme for the in game Bobs (fixed?) and the actual resolution for the backgrounds for the equivalent of a single screen. This should allow me to scale the backgrounds and then tweak some of the base colors for the sprites and see how they work as background colors at the same time.

Anyways, whether you reply or not, thanks for doing this great conversion!

[sokolovic]

Iskbob, nice work !

The "Amiga" original palette seems to me very compromised by being shared with the Atari ST one.
They didn't had 4096 Shades of color to choose within but but only 512. That explain probably the crude aspect of the Amiga version (like many other games of that era).

[Iskbob]

Originally Posted by sokolovic

Iskbob, nice work !

The "Amiga" original palette seems to me very compromised by being shared with the Atari ST one.
They didn't had 4096 Shades of color to choose within but but only 512. That explain probably the crude aspect of the Amiga version (like many other games of that era).

Hey thanks!

I don't think the ST was entirely to blame on this one. It didn't have the biggest color selection but then neither did the Sega Mega Drive, and both had 512 colors for their palette selections. I think it had more to do with US Gold as they were using some kind of universal palette between ST conversions.

If they did rip the visuals it might've come down to the way they did the original quantization and it would make sense that they might use a repeatable palette for that process back then as it would've taken quite a bit of time to run the algorithm per image captured. They could've possibly tweaked the visuals further but each adjustment likely would've created a trade off when working with 16 colors and if you only have 6 months to do a very complex memory tight port, tweaking the palette and pixel art is probably lower on your priority list compared to getting the game ready for the release date and playable.

Not everything US Gold released was bad, but they certainly didn't put a premium on quality and fidelity for a lot of their releases. I think in the end it was sort of a churn business with a lot licensing privileges and a tool kit of short cuts to help things along. Their priority was marketing and hitting the various buying points through out the year - the Christmas turkey was always a risk

[Marcio D.]

Originally Posted by Iskbob

I don't think the visuals in your version are terrible by any means, but the color choices just don't seem quite close enough vs the original game. I'd like to offer to help to get them a bit closer if possible.

Totally agree with you, and many others have expressed the same opinion over the past couple of years.

I get the impression that Brick Nash is being overprotective of his "baby" at the moment, and not willing to entertain discussion of palette improvements. But I'm hoping he'll loosen up over time and allow it to happen, whether doing the work himself or allowing others to do it on his behalf.

The current 1991 U.S. Gold colours wouldn't need to be abandoned entirely. The game could allow the player to choose between the 1991 U.S. Gold colours and an "Enhanced" palette such as yours (Iskbob).

As it stands, this game is an 8 out of 10 for an arcade conversion to the Amiga. A palette improvement would instantly bump that score up to a 9 out of 10. Really hope it happens!

[Marcio D.]

Originally Posted by haps

Holy snapping duck shit BigD! Whine much?

At this stage, the more whining, the better. It can only help improve the game, as Brick Nash is still willing to work on it for now.

What you perceive as whining is what others who care more about the game would perceive as valuable testing feedback.

[Marcio D.]

Originally Posted by derSammler

LOLIf playing games is "invest time" to you, you should probably just stop playing games.Learn to code and fix the bug yourself, that's time better spent than whining and telling he needs to fix a bug just because you want him to do so.

Who are you to judge how someone else invests their time?

And how is anyone supposed to take over for Brick Nash and fix bugs + make improvements, without access to the source code?!

[Marcio D.]

Originally Posted by jotd

I'm positive that at some point Brick Nash will allow us to use the source code. At this point, an AGA version will be possible.

What makes you so positive that Brick Nash will release the source code?

I'm really hoping that he does, as the palette really needs refinement. And other improvements wouldn't hurt either.

This is a terrific project that needs to be further polished over time, and might be beyond the will of an already exhausted Brick Nash who's eager to move onto something new.

#ReleaseTheSource !

[BigD]

Originally Posted by Marcio D.

...and might be beyond the will of an already exhausted Brick Nash who's eager to move onto something new.

#ReleaseTheSource !

It would be nice to think he would like to polish it to rid it of glitching on Rolento and the Belger bug (why is he stuck off screen?) before he moves on!

[saimon69]

Originally Posted by Marcio D.

I get the impression that Brick Nash is being overprotective of his "baby" at the moment, and not willing to entertain discussion of palette improvements. But I'm hoping he'll loosen up over time and allow it to happen, whether doing the work himself or allowing others to do it on his behalf.

Same for the music: i did all in-game songs for FF for another (never developed) port in 2020, and are all in two channels so to have noises for both players - are available in Mod Archive

i tested how they fit the game in this video here

[ Show youtube player ]

[Marcio D.]

Originally Posted by BigD

It would be nice to think he would like to polish it to rid it of glitching on Rolento and the Belger bug (why is he stuck off screen?) before he moves on!

Did you test the May 30th release to see if those bugs haven't already been fixed?

[Cris1997XX]

If only we had the source code for this godforsaken game available, another programmer would be able to make a nice AGA port with higher color count and probably more on-screen enemies too. Too bad it's still closed source so far...

[Marcio D.]

How many of us would be willing to contribute to a Patreon for Brick Nash to continue working on FFE - e.g. fixing bugs, providing an option for a new palette, improving A.I., further code optimizations, producing an AGA port down the road, etc.?

This is the approach being taken by the creator of Final Fight MD for the Sega Genesis / Mega Drive:


https://www.patreon.com/mauroxavier


https://mxretrodev.itch.io/final-fight-md

[Flytag]

Brick Nash does this for fun and doesn't want to feel obligated to make corrections because he has a Patreon.

I think the palette of this version is perfect because it pays homage to Richard Chaplin's version, that gives it all its charm.

If you want a perfect arcade AGA version you can do it in your free time with Scorpion Engine.

[BigD]

Originally Posted by Marcio D.

Did you test the May 30th release to see if those bugs haven't already been fixed?

My daughter switched it off to watch Britain's got Talent so me and my son never got to the end! The change log didn't mention any fixes on that front! Will try again tonight!

[BigD]

Originally Posted by Marcio D.

Did you test the May 30th release to see if those bugs haven't already been fixed?

Ok, got to the Rolento level but my son died and needed to use a credit. He chose a new character Cody rather than Guy who he was playing as before, and I got the following message:

"Exception "Line 1111 Emulator" ($2C) at $8 occurred."

= crash.

...shame.

[Marcio D.]

Originally Posted by Flytag

Brick Nash does this for fun and doesn't want to feel obligated to make corrections because he has a Patreon. I think the palette of this version is perfect because it pays homage to Richard Chaplin's version, that gives it all its charm.If you want a perfect arcade AGA version you can do it in your free time with Scorpion Engine.

That may have been Brick Nash's intent when he first started this project three years ago. But how do you know he wouldn't appreciate some financial incentive going forward, now that the project has entered the phase of remaining bug corrections and possible improvements? Do you have an inside track? Are you a personal friend of his?

While most folks regard Richard Aplin as a competent coder and don't fault him for his version of Amiga Final Fight given the constraints he was working under, the only charm to his version was the splendid title music by Jolyon Myers. A good conversion should strive for a colour palette that better captures the spirit of the arcade original. Unfortunately, the garish palette of the 1991 U.S. Gold version doesn't achieve this.

Like I previously mentioned, why not provide the player with both options: the 1991 U.S. Gold palette, and an "enhanced" palette such as the one shown by Iskbob a few days ago?

I'm actually not rooting for an AGA version. Based on my own nostalgia, I share Brick Nash's affinity for OCS/ECS Amiga. I just think better colour choices can be made for FFE within OCS/ECS limitations, which are further limited by adherence to 16 onscreen colours for optimal performance. Having said that, I think AGA support is a worthwhile future endeavour as well, as the Amiga community has plenty of AGA fans.

Try to refrain from telling others to make their own version if they want to see improvements. It's not the best way forward. We're clamoring for Brick Nash to make further enhancements because it's a fantastic project, not because it's horrible. The project just needs some nudges here and there to make it even better, which is what all this feedback is for.

I doubt anyone who's reported bugs and made suggestions did so because they have malice and want to see the project fail. On the contrary, we want to see the project be the best it can be. Why? Because we love Amiga, we love Final Fight, and we all appreciate Brick Nash's hard work and want him to continue!

[sokolovic]

Yeah I don't get the cold "do your own version" answer by some here.
Everyone here knows that beta testing and reporting bugs is a part of a game developement life.
And everyone here praise the great work made by BrickNash. But Final Fight is a huge game. Clearing all the bugs could be an exhausting work, especially if you're alone on that task.
We have people offering feedback, proposal to enhance graphics, make an AGA version and even financial support to help and thanks him.
How can it be bad ?

[saimon69]

Originally Posted by sokolovic

Yeah I don't get the cold "do your own version" answer by some here.

Linux users started it by saying "don't like it? Fork it and do your own"

[Cris1997XX]

Originally Posted by Flytag

If you want a perfect arcade AGA version you can do it in your free time with Scorpion Engine.

Do you really think it would be possible with Scorpion Engine? People are struggling to convert less complex games like Wonder Boy: Monster's Lair, I think you're pretty naive...

[d4rk3lf]

Originally Posted by Marcio D.

That may have been Brick Nash's intent when he first started this project three years ago. But how do you know he wouldn't appreciate some financial incentive going forward, now that the project has entered the phase of remaining bug corrections and possible improvements? Do you have an inside track?

If you read some messages earlier in this thread, I offered him to pay him some funds only for the work he has done so far, and asked him if he could provide his PP or any account, so anyone could pay. I repeat, only for the work he already done.
He refused.

So, if he refused that (just a gift), how do you think he is eager to create patreon, where he will be in some sort of commitment to make improvements on future builds?

And to tell you honestly, I respect that, and I'd do the same thing.

I am very happy he is willing that do some minor corrections, from time to time.

I also hope, at some point in time, he will give source code to jotd, or any other coder he have trust, to continue refining the port... but it's only his decision.

In some sense, I understand not releasing source code yet, because imagine the confusion that would create, where many coders would take, and fix just 1 and 2 things, and million versions of FFE on Amiga would appear.