RE: Amiga users didn't upgrade

[OlafSch]

@Photon

the PC was a huge market already end of 80s and beginning 90s so there was a rapid development. New expensive hardware was developed (f.e. new graphic card). Games were supporting it. Because there was such a big market that despite piracy developers earned enough. Other users wanted to play the new games too. Hardware became cheaper and common. New and expensive hardware was developed...

On amiga even beginning of 90s A500 with 1 MB and two disc drives was standard. Most users also refused to invest in better hardware or lacked the money because of being at school. Later when they could afford most preople already used PCs.

[Photon]

Originally Posted by OlafSch

@Photon

the PC was a huge market already end of 80s and beginning 90s so there was a rapid development. New expensive hardware was developed (f.e. new graphic card). Games were supporting it. Because there was such a big market that despite piracy developers earned enough. Other users wanted to play the new games too. Hardware became cheaper and common. New and expensive hardware was developed...

On amiga even beginning of 90s A500 with 1 MB and two disc drives was standard. Most users also refused to invest in better hardware or lacked the money because of being at school. Later when they could afford most preople already used PCs.

I'm sure that there is plenty of data to show that globally, there were no PCs in schools or homes running Windows (even very slowly and awkwardly) in 1992.

They cost 3x as much; they could do 3x less; there was no killer app at all on the horizon, game or utility.

That said, I'm sorry to have brought up the PC. This thread is about what Amiga users did with their Amigas. We can leave the PC insanity mystery aside.

[OlafSch]

Photon said "Jehova" ;-)

[ Show youtube player ]

[Photon]

Well, the PC is relevant only in the time and context of the topic; it's only because according to my personal lights didn't purely stay on-topic that I'm "apologetic".

I'm more strict with myself because I think on-topic is good forum, and free speech is forum and 100% OK.

[hammer]

Originally Posted by AestheticDebris

I think when people are saying "didn't upgrade their Amigas" they're mostly talking about CPU, RAM, other add ons etc - not necessarily going out and buying an entirely new model.

Having to persuade users to buy an entirely new computer, rather than just a smaller investment in say some RAM or a Hard Drive meant software developers were loath to target any spec higher than the base model. Meanwhile, on the PC, the expected minimum spec would just creep ever upwards as developers felt more comfortable pushing the limits (and/or scaling up the experience with hardware level)

With the PC, the graphics card upgrade (e.g. ET4000AX) still runs DOS VGA games with improved frame buffer performance.

In 1992, ET4000AX's asking price is $162 USD.

https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_h.../n603/mode/2up
PC Mag 1992-08, page 604 of 664,
Diamond Speedstar 24 (ET4000AX ISA) has $169 USD.

Good luck with smaller companies like Phase 5 (Germany) or GVP matching ET4000's $169 price.

https://vintageapple.org/pcworld/pdf..._June_1993.pdf
Gateway Party List, Page 72 of 314 (prices are in USD)

4SX-33 with 486-SX 33Mhz, 4MB RAM, 170 MB HDD, Windows Video accelerator 1MB video DRAM, 14-inch monitor for $1494,

4DX-33 with 486-DX 33Mhz, 8MB RAM, 212 MB HDD, Windows Video accelerator 1MB video DRAM, 14-inch monitor for $1895,

Page 128 of 314
Polywell Poly 486-33V with 486SX-33, 4MB of RAM, SVGA 1MB VL-Bus, price: $1250


https://vintageapple.org/pcworld/pdf...ugust_1993.pdf
Gateway Party List, Page 62 of 324

4SX-33 with 486-SX 33Mhz, 4MB RAM, 212MB HDD, Windows Video accelerator 1MB video DRAM, 14-inch monitor for $1495,

4DX-33 with 486-DX 33Mhz, 8MB RAM, 212 MB HDD, Windows Video accelerator 1MB video DRAM, 14-inch monitor for $1795,

Remember Gateway?

Page 292 of 324
From Comtrade
VESA Local Bus WinMax with 32-Bit VL-Bus Video Accelerator 1MB, 486DX2 66 Mhz, 210 MB HDD, 4MB RAM, Price: $1795


https://vintageapple.org/pcworld/pdf...tober_1993.pdf
October 1993, Page 13 of 354,
ALR Inc, Model 1 has Pentium 60-based PC for $2495.



https://archive.org/details/amiga-wo...ge/n7/mode/2up
Amigaworld, October 1993, Page 66 of 104
Amiga 4000/040 @ 25Mhz for $2299 (this is overpriced)
Amiga 4000/030 @ 25Mhz for $1599 (this is overpriced)


Page 82 of 104
M1230X's 68030 @ 50Mhz has $349 (this is overpriced)
1942 Monitor has $389
A1200 with 85MB HDD has $624 (this is overpriced)
A1200 with 130MB HDD has $724 (this is overpriced)

The Commodore solution is beaten by the Gateway solution.

Target sales period: XMas of 1993 Q4. The 1993 XMas sales period was Commodore's last chance.

For Q4 1993, Apple released Macintosh Quadra 605(with 68LC040 @ 25Mhz) for about $1000. Apple was able to zero-sum the PC world's 486SX-based PCs.


Dear Commodore / Phase 5 / GVP / Apollo, offer 68LC040 based Amiga 1200 for $1000 in 1993. Hint: your cost structure is trash.

[hammer]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

Biased poll - in 1996.

Total number of Amigas sold in Germany:-
• Amiga 500: 1,160,500 (Includes Amiga 500+ sales of 79,500)
• Amiga 600: 193,000
• Amiga 2000: 124,500
• Amiga 1200: 95,500
• Amiga 1000: 30,500
• Amiga CD32: 25,000
• Amiga CDTV: 25,800
• Amiga 3000: 14,380 (Includes Amiga 3000T sales)
• Amiga 4000: 11,300 (Includes Amiga 4000 030 sales)

Over 1 million A500s sold. How many upgraded? Let's be generous and say it was 100,000 - less than 10%. Actually that number might not be too far off, since the majority of A1200 owners probably upgraded from an A500.

The real problem with this poll is that it comes far too late. The critical period was the early 90's before the A1200 was released, when PCs were getting cheaper and more powerful. The A500 was still very competent at a much lower price, but that just attracted 'poor' buyers who didn't want to spend any money on it - who then complained about it not matching the performance of much more expensive PCs!

It's not a myth that the vast majority of Amiga owners didn't upgrade beyond a trapdoor RAM expansion or external floppy drive. Which was fine if you were happy with that. But you couldn't then then complain about how the Amiga wasn't getting the latest 'hot' games for the PC.

"It's Commodore's fault for dragging the chain on upgrading the custom chips!" you say. But that wouldn't have been enough. It would also need a much faster CPU, fast RAM and hard drive. "But that would cost as much as a PC!" you moan. "Surely Commodore could wave their magic wand and do it for half the price?" No, they couldn't. PC stuff was being made in the far East in huge quantities at low margins. Hardware prices were as low as they could be. Furthermore PC owners were used to upgrading every 2 years or so to get the latest hardware, so software developers could rely on having a large userbase with the latest most powerful machines.

I don't decry those who didn't upgrade. If Commodore had managed to continually produce more powerful machines cheaply it wouldn't have made much difference. The Amiga's greatest asset was the installed base of stock machines. Amiga 500 games were getting better even after the A1200 came out, while AGA didn't provide the punch many were expecting. You just have to look at PCs to see that once you get on the upgrade bandwagon there's no getting off.

Now, 30 years later, the A500 is finally getting the development attention it deserves - with impressive new games coming out that show it didn't need upgrading after all. I thought about putting a high powered accelerator card in my A500, but I decided to keep it stock for compatibility - and because I would just end up doing things that are more suited to a modern PC.

Around 1993, Amiga 1200, 600, and CD32 were made in the Philippines.

The US can still influence the Philippines e.g. US EPA.

PC be can spec'ed that can last as long as game console generation i.e. PC's 2-year upgrade cycle is not required.

A PC with Core i7-2600 with Radeon HD 7950 can last long as PS4.
A PC with Ryzen 7 3700X (AM4 socket) with Radeon RX 6700 XT 12 GB can last long as PS5. AM4 socket still supports Ryzen 7 5800X3D that is still potent against Core i7 13700k.

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by hammer

PC be can spec'ed that can last as long as game console generation i.e. PC's 2-year upgrade cycle is not required.

A PC with Core i7-2600 with Radeon HD 7950 can last long as PS4.

Different era. Moore's law is dead and PC manufacturers are struggling to maintain sales. The global PC market peaked in 2011 and is predicted to continue declining. Many people have switched to tablets and smartphones, which now exceed PC sales by a wide margin. And they play games on them too, many of which are simple 2D stuff similar to what the Amiga was doing in 1990!

So you are right - a modern PC doesn't need to be upgraded every 2 years to run the latest software, provided you buy a high-end model. But we were talking about the 1990's, not 2023. During that time PCs went from 286s with ISA bus to Pentiums with PCI. Often the only practical way to upgrade your old PC was to simply buy a new one. And you needed to upgrade frequently because the latest games and apps were needing more and more powerful hardware to work properly.

Not so on the Amiga, thankfully. If you bought an A500 in 1987 you could add a trapdoor RAM expansion and perhaps an external disk drive, and be assured of being able to play most of the latest games even after 1993. With a modest expansion like the A590 you could have 2MB Fast RAM and a 20MB hard drive for more 'serious' stuff, like I did with my A1000. That was a pretty nice setup.

Some of us were rich enough to afford accelerator cards or more powerful models, but that wasn't necessary for most stuff. I ordered an A3000 then they were announced because I was doing commercial development and figured I needed a faster machine. However it wasn't delivered until the next year. In the mean time I discovered Hisoft Devpac, which was 5 times faster than my previous assembler. Turns out I didn't need a 25MHz 030, just a more efficient app!

Of course some things did benefit from a faster machine. If you were into ray tracing or compiling C code the faster the better. 3D flight sims and car racing games often ran smoother, and later on texture mapped 3D upped the CPU requirements even more. But then you were on the merry-go-round. A 50MHz 030 wasn't enough, you wanted more! 40MHz 040 still not good enough, 50MHz 060 barely adequate (too slow for Quake). And now it's the end of the line for 68k so you have to switch to Power PC! And RTG too of course, with PC graphics chips stuck on ridiculously expensive cards that only work in a big box Amiga.

You can understand why most Amiga fans didn't want to get on that merry-go-round. Better to just get a PC for the latest games etc., and keep the (mildly expanded) A500 for classic Amiga stuff.

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by hammer

The Commodore solution is beaten by the Gateway solution.

How was a Gateway PC a 'solution' for running Amiga software?

[AestheticDebris]

Originally Posted by Photon

So, software. I'm thinking now that the PC was perceived as the new easy piracy platform. But IDK. Piracy was pretty easy on Amiga too. Maybe modems were "ultra cool" and dragged users to the tragic mess of no-platform PCs? Poll says Amigans didn't use them much.

Piracy doesn't really sell platforms, no matter how much pirates like to suggest it does. First and foremost it's what software you can get for it and by 1996, a Windows PC was easily the most appealing. Being online in 96 was amazing, even if the internet was very much in its infancy. Playing online games was great fun, chatting with people around the world on newsgroups etc. It was a great time and the Amiga just wasn't great for it.

Originally Posted by Photon

Currently on PC that's being substituted for by incessant, needless updates, to keep you sucking on the teet. Pick a poison, I guess.

Continuous updates is the price of being exposed to the internet and all its woes, had AmigaOS continued you can be sure it would have adopted the same approach. I get the appeal of an unchanging platform, but it isn't something that is realistic in a world like today's (and I'd not give up the benefits of connectivity just to have it back).

It would be interesting if there was a similar source of data for around 88/89 though, when the Amiga was still a reasonably strong player as I think it would show a very different story.

I think that all you can derive from a poll as late as this is that those who clung to their Amiga till the bitter end were.those who were spending money on upgrades. Or buying third party add-ons because the option to upgrade any other way didn't exist unless they jumped ship to PC/Mac with everyone else. And were probably all following the whole Escom saga, desperately hoping for some kind of sign that an actual new Amiga would arrive.

[TCD]

Originally Posted by AestheticDebris

And were probably all following the whole Escom saga, desperately hoping for some kind of sign that an actual new Amiga would arrive.

In April of that year AT/Escom revealed the 'Walker' prototype only to sell the Amiga brand and technology to VisCorp a month later. I guess that's when it was clear that there will be no new Amiga. Up to that point THOSE WHO REMAINED™ hoped that there will be a new Amiga model from AT. It's quite interesting to read the editorials and letters to the editor in those years following Commodore's demise.

[hammer]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

Different era. Moore's law is dead and PC manufacturers are struggling to maintain sales. The global PC market peaked in 2011 and is predicted to continue declining. Many people have switched to tablets and smartphones, which now exceed PC sales by a wide margin. And they play games on them too, many of which are simple 2D stuff similar to what the Amiga was doing in 1990!

High-end PC dGPU sales are fine.

Dr. Jon Peddie, president of JPR. "Some products like Nvidia’s RTX 4090 did exceptionally well despite its high price, so almost everything we thought we knew about economics and market behavior seemed to be turned on its head in Q4.”


"We saw a modest return to growth in Q4 2022 due to the stabilization of AIB prices and the successful rollout of next-generation GPUs from AMD and Nvidia," said C. Robert Dow, an analyst at JPR "The high-end RTX 4090, priced at $1,599 at launch, was particularly successful, with retailers unable to keep the part in stock. The success of these high-end AIBs reflects that first adopters are becoming acclimated to higher prices."


Excellent sales for Hogwarts Legacy show the health of AMD-powered game consoles and gaming PCs (NVIDIA dGPU dominant). Hogwarts Legacy doesn't run on the latest mobile phones and tablets.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/28/sony...its-record.htm
Sony said it sold 19.1 million PlayStation 5 consoles in the financial year, beating its own forecast of 18 million. That was up from 11.5 million PS5 units sold in the previous fiscal year when Sony was facing supply chain issues.

Mobile phone gaming is large with an inferior attachment rate.

Mobile phones and tablets don't have visually demanding hardcore gamers.
The prediction addiction about gaming PC's "doom and gloom" is BS.

Mobile games like Genshin Impact ports can run on Intel Xe G7 and AMD Vega 8 IGPs. There's a separation between casual visual gaming and visually demanding gaming.

https://www.wired.com/story/smartpho...slump-q1-2023/
SMARTPHONE sales are down again. According to the tech analyst firm IDC, phone sales have declined by nearly 15 percent year over year in the first quarter of 2023. This is a continuation of a slide that began last year; sales have been declining for the past several fiscal quarters.

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

So you are right - a modern PC doesn't need to be upgraded every 2 years to run the latest software, provided you buy a high-end model.

Wrong with "provided you buy a high-end model". When a new console generation is launched, the gaming PC hardware specs should follow the console's specs e.g. RX 6700 XT 12 GB can deliver the minimum PS5 gaming experience.

RTX 3060 Ti / RTX 3070 / RTX 3070 Ti has its 8 GB VRAM debacle and NVIDIA (greeda) made sure a PC gamer who purchased an 8 GB VRAM Ampere GPU will need an upgrade within a PS5 console generation.

NVIDIA's Path Traced CyberPunk 2077 raytracing overdrive marketing is a distraction from PS5's minimum gaming experience i.e. path traced Quake 2 RTX is not Sony's Last of Us Part 1 or Capcom's Resident Evil 4 Remake or Warner Bros Games' Hogwarts Legacy.

VRAM is a major issue for the game's fundamental artwork assets. Raytracing wouldn't solve crap artwork. VRAM debacle is causing sales issues with RTX 4070.

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

But we were talking about the 1990's, not 2023. During that time PCs went from 286s with ISA bus to Pentiums with PCI. Often the only practical way to upgrade your old PC was to simply buy a new one. And you needed to upgrade frequently because the latest games and apps were needing more and more powerful hardware to work properly.

My 1992-era PC clone 386DX-33 with ET4000AX covered gaming PC until 1996's Quake. AMD has 386DX-40 upgrades.

Wing Commander VGA is smooth on 386DX-25 with clone VGA (don't use IBM VGA).

Wing Commander AGA needs 68020 @ 25 Mhz with Fast RAM and stock A1200 has performance problems with it. I run Wing Commander OCS on an early 1992 Amiga 3000/030 @ 25 Mhz and it was pretty smooth, but it has inferior colors when compared to PC's VGA version.

Amiga 4000/030 didn't exist in Q4 1992.
Amiga 1200 has supply problems in 1992. My realistic purchase for A1200 was in 1993.

My 1992 era 386DX-33 with ET4000AX covered AGA era games, hence I didn't need Amiga 1200 with a 68030 accelerator card. Commodore missed Xmas 1992 with CPU accelerated A1200 bundle.

For 1993, the amount of money for Amiga 1200 with 3rd party 68030 accelerator card is about 486SX-25/486SX-33 based PC clone. 3rd party 68030 accelerator card vendors wouldn't match the PC clone's standardization and economies of scale.

Late 1993-era Doom is an integer-based game and it wouldn't be a major problem until FPU-heavy Quake.

My gaming PC during 1996 was a Pentium 150 which I overclocked to 166 Mhz via FSB jumper. During 1996, I weighed up upgrading my Amiga 3000 with Phase 5's CyberGraphics 64 (S3 Trio 64U) and CyberStorm 060 @ 50 Mhz vs a new Pentium 150 + S3 Trio 64 build, PC wins performance vs cost benefit for playing Quake.

A PC clone (with Pentium 150 + 16 MB RAM + S3 Trio 64UV + Yamaha RS-S163 16-bit sound card + PCPartner MB520N (Intel 430VX chipset) motherboard) + 14-inch KTX SVGA monitor build cost is about $1500 AUD which is close to 1989's ~$1300 AUD Amiga 500 + 1084S monitor.

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

Not so on the Amiga, thankfully. If you bought an A500 in 1987 you could add a trapdoor RAM expansion and perhaps an external disk drive, and be assured of being able to play most of the latest games even after 1993. With a modest expansion like the A590 you could have 2MB Fast RAM and a 20MB hard drive for more 'serious' stuff, like I did with my A1000. That was a pretty nice setup.

For the 1990s, Amiga 500 doesn't play PC DOS 3D games such as IndyCar Racing, Doom, Star Wars Dark Forces, Star Wars X Wing, Wing Commander 2 and 'etc'.

Stock Amiga 1200 has supply and 3D performance issues.

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

Some of us were rich enough to afford accelerator cards or more powerful models, but that wasn't necessary for most stuff. I ordered an A3000 then they were announced because I was doing commercial development and figured I needed a faster machine. However it wasn't delivered until the next year. In the mean time I discovered Hisoft Devpac, which was 5 times faster than my previous assembler. Turns out I didn't need a 25MHz 030, just a more efficient app!

Amiga 3000 / 4000 wasn't mass-produced like my 386DX PC clone.

Commodore Germany's design was not cost-competitive. During ZIP RAM upgrade, my local PC vendor remarked that my Amiga 3000's build construction was overkill. My Dad purchased both my Amiga 3000 and 1992-era PC clone 386DX-33 + ET4000AX. I took over PC purchasing decisions around 1996 when I sold my Amiga 3000 to a small Australian TV production studio which helps fund my Pentium PC purchase. I returned to multimedia presentation activities with 2002-era GeForce 4200 Ti VIVO (Video-In, Video-Out) with a non-profit organization and I did use the Amiga 3000 for MIDI work for the same non-profit organization in the early to mid-1990s.

My school friend's broken Amiga 500 Rev 5 was in storage since early 1992 and I repaired it (broken PSU) during the COVID-19 lockdown. My Dad traded our Amiga 500 Rev 6 1MB RAMfor an ex-corporate Amiga 3000/030 @ 25 Mhz 2MB RAM (1MB Chip RAM, 1 MB Fast RAM) in early 1992 while my school friend still has expanded Amiga 1000 and his parents purchased a "486" PC clone.

My ex-corporate Amiga 3000's 120 MB hard disk still has corporate Amiga Vision data on it, hence it was used for multimedia presentations. My Dad's workmates have Amiga 2000s.

TV production market can't sustain Commodore.

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

Of course some things did benefit from a faster machine. If you were into ray tracing or compiling C code the faster the better. 3D flight sims and car racing games often ran smoother, and later on texture mapped 3D upped the CPU requirements even more. But then you were on the merry-go-round. A 50MHz 030 wasn't enough, you wanted more! 40MHz 040 still not good enough, 50MHz 060 barely adequate (too slow for Quake). And now it's the end of the line for 68k so you have to switch to Power PC! And RTG too of course, with PC graphics chips stuck on ridiculously expensive cards that only work in a big box Amiga.

You can understand why most Amiga fans didn't want to get on that merry-go-round. Better to just get a PC for the latest games etc., and keep the (mildly expanded) A500 for classic Amiga stuff.

A1200 with 68030 @ 40 Mhz accelerator would have covered Doom-type games until FPU-heavy Quake.

"Made in Germany" 68K / PPC CPU accelerators are not cost-competitive while "Made in UK" Raspberry Pi 4B is cheap. "Made in UK" Raspberry Pi 4B is manufactured by Sony Europe B.V.'s Factory in Pencoed, Wales, UK.

https://techmonitor.ai/technology/mo...0_next_quarter
For 1994, Motorola Inc yesterday finally launched the long-promised 68060 follow-on to the 68040, claiming that it matches the performance of the Intel Corp Pentium at less than half the price – it costs $263 at 50MHz when you order 10,000 or more and will sample next month

The cost of 68060 wasn't the problem i.e. look in "Made in Germany" factor.

The Amiga market can't mass produce the 68040 socket infrastructure that is needed for the 68060. There's a reason why Germany doesn't have a cost-effective home computer platform, unlike UK's Raspberry Pi.

PiStorm for the classic Amiga is leveraging Raspberry Pi's mass production.

Each Amiga CPU accelerator vendor designed their own 68K accelerator without NVIDIA/AMD/Intel style reference design standards to promote commoditization.

GVP (USA) = failed. Wasn't able to clone the Amiga.

Phase 5 Digital Products (Germany, EU) = failed, copied the Apple PowerPC migration path.

Escom's Amiga Technologies (Germany, EU) = failed. Wasn't able to mass produce 68040 socket infrastructure that is needed for 68060. 68030-based Amiga in 1995 is LOL.

B-Plan (Germany, EU)/ Genesi (USA) = failed, copied the Apple PowerPC migration path.

Amiga, Inc (USA) / Eyetech Group Ltd (UK) / Hyperion Entertainment (Belgium, EU) = failed, copied the Apple PowerPC migration path. Acube Systems and A-EON Technology are still trying. Tao-Amiga partnership is a distraction. Mike Battilana's C-A Acquisition Corp purchased Amiga Inc's IP and renamed to Amiga Corporation.

Apollo Core (Germany, EU), ~10,000 68080 units and still trying. The cloned X86 style evolution path for 68K CPU family.

Raspberry Foundation (UK) reached monthly 500,000 Pi unit sales. Rivals Commodore-level worldwide unit sales. Followed the classic "Computers For The Masses, Not The Classes" and BBC Micro's pro-education path.

[hammer]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

How was a Gateway PC a 'solution' for running Amiga software?

Can Commodore survive just in the Amiga-related business software market?

I tested Imagine 3D from the magazine coverdisks on both Amiga 3000 (68030/68882 FPU @ 25 Mhz) and 386DX-33 (with 387 FPU) based PC.

[hammer]

Originally Posted by TCD

In April of that year AT/Escom revealed the 'Walker' prototype only to sell the Amiga brand and technology to VisCorp a month later. I guess that's when it was clear that there will be no new Amiga. Up to that point THOSE WHO REMAINED™ hoped that there will be a new Amiga model from AT. It's quite interesting to read the editorials and letters to the editor in those years following Commodore's demise.

Amiga Technologies' late 1995 MindWalker prototype with 68030 CPU is a joke.

68030's 386DX class CPU in late 1995 is LOL.

Unlike Apple, there's very little effort for 68040 socket mass production in Amiga land.

68040 socket-related infrastructure is required for 68060.

For Q4 1993, Apple offered a $1000 USD Macintosh Quadra 605 with 68LC040 @ 25 Mhz. Apple effectively countered the PC clone's 486SX-33 $1000 price range for Xmas Q4 1993 time period.

[Tigerskunk]

Originally Posted by Paulee_Alex_Bow

On a related note, I find that today there are STILL Amiga users who really don’t want to upgrade

They sometimes post in the Amiga FB group saying essentially this:

“Why would anyone want to upgrade the RAM in their Amiga? Especially to the degree people do these days?”

Then the community gives a load of *very good* reasons to this question, including:

- Playing WHDLOAD games and later Amiga games
- Productivity, large graphical files/samples/3D Rendering
- The fact that many folks had expanded RAM back in the day anyway ¯\_(?)_/¯

And then the OP replies essentially saying:

“None of this is relevant! I want to use my Amiga exactly like I did back in 1991!”

And then they go off into the sunset, leaving some of us frustrated lol.

I guess Amiga is a Spectrum, with “1MB A500 Gotek club” on one end and the “people who like to upgrade hardware and push limits” on the other…and these two groups don’t have the same goals or ideals, and may struggle to see eye to eye occasionally.

I always say, the reason to own an Amiga these days are different to back in the day. Back then, you always wanted to have the latest and best.

Now, I am doing this for nostalgia.

I actually own a A1200 with a Vampire card, but barely used it over the last 3 years. While it's fun to see how far you can push an Amiga, it simply doesn't resemble my experience from back in the day.

[hammer]

Originally Posted by Photon

I'm sure that there is plenty of data to show that globally, there were no PCs in schools or homes running Windows (even very slowly and awkwardly) in 1992.

They cost 3x as much; they could do 3x less; there was no killer app at all on the horizon, game or utility.

That said, I'm sorry to have brought up the PC. This thread is about what Amiga users did with their Amigas. We can leave the PC insanity mystery aside.

My 1992 government state technology high school has Windows-based PCs.

My government state technology high school has Mac Classic II (publishing), and Amiga 2000s (visual arts) fleets. We have a basic wind tunnel for the aerodynamic competition. This is for Australian NSW state government technology high schools.

1990 Wing Commander was gaming PC's killer app.
In 1989, my older cousin has a 286-16 + VGA-based home PC clone while I have my 1989 Amiga 500.

In terms of population and GDP, the combined Nordic countries ~= Australia.

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by Tigerskunk

I actually own a A1200 with a Vampire card, but barely used it over the last 3 years. While it's fun to see how far you can push an Amiga, it simply doesn't resemble my experience from back in the day.

I found the same thing with my Vampired A600. Apart from web browsing it gets very little use. I prefer to use my A1200 on the TV like I used to back in the day.

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by hammer

Can Commodore survive just in the Amiga-related business software market?

Yes, no, who cares? We didn't want the Amiga to be just a business computer (though I must say that Easy Ledgers was a joy to use compared to typical PC accounting packages).

I tested Imagine 3D from the magazine coverdisks on both Amiga 3000 (68030/68882 FPU @ 25 Mhz) and 386DX-33 (with 387 FPU) based PC.

Why did you do that?

[Daedalus]

Originally Posted by Photon

I'm sure that there is plenty of data to show that globally, there were no PCs in schools or homes running Windows (even very slowly and awkwardly) in 1992.

They cost 3x as much; they could do 3x less; there was no killer app at all on the horizon, game or utility.

Yup, I've only got the experience of my schools and the schools in the locality, but my primary school was still using BBC Micros for their computer education needs up until I left in 1994. The larger primary schools in the town ran Acorn machines too, though they were typically Archimedes. I moved on to secondary school then, and that was the first time I had a PC for education. Even then, the class was all 286 machines with DOS except for three 386 machines that ran Windows 3.1. Everyone wanted those ones of course... And I still distinctly remember the fact that there were three mice, but only two of them had balls

Amongst my friends around that time there were only a couple of people I knew whose parents had PCs, and both of those were dual-5.25" drive types, probably 8086 or 286-based. Most people I knew with computers even in 1993 or 1994 were using C64s or Spectrums, and the occasional rich kid had an Amiga or an ST.

Just because certain computers or technology were available at the time, doesn't mean everyone was using them.

[hammer]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

Yes, no, who cares? We didn't want the Amiga to be just a business computer (though I must say that Easy Ledgers was a joy to use compared to typical PC accounting packages).

The early 90s textured 3D games sold gaming PCs.

C= Amiga's core revenue stream is home computer gaming, but A1200's performance wasn't fully maximized with a shared CHIP RAM.

After owning a stock A1200 and playing Wing Commander AGA, I can understand why Commodore UK pushed for the CPU-accelerated A1200 bundle that was rejected by Commodore International while there are fewer spec restrictions for Commodore Germany's 386 / 486 based PCs.

PC DOS Doom 1 and 2 sold about 4 million copies.

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

Why did you do that?

Because I can.

[Paulee_Alex_Bow]

Originally Posted by Tigerskunk

I always say, the reason to own an Amiga these days are different to back in the day. Back then, you always wanted to have the latest and best.

Now, I am doing this for nostalgia.

I actually own a A1200 with a Vampire card, but barely used it over the last 3 years. While it's fun to see how far you can push an Amiga, it simply doesn't resemble my experience from back in the day.

Good points. Nostalgia Is one draw for me, the other is my legitimate fascination with Paula, and pushing the Amiga musically.

I’ve found that I enjoy something that *mostly* resembles my old setup. I had an A600, then an A1200 with an ‘030 in the 1985-2001 period, so by staying away from RTG and too much modernity (although I did get a TF1260!) I have something that feels uniquely my hue of Amiga. I like to run my A500+ TF536 and A1200 via SVIDEO to a nice 14” JVC CRT.

However, my A3000 with Picasso II is something I never owned, and it’s just magical to use. It still feels familiar, I don’t run newicons or many enhancements, but different, maybe more vibrant.

I have an A2000 I think I’m gonna vamp to see what that’s all about. Hopefully make a toaster system!