Underground Arcade

[Graham Humphrey]

I would say that it is more important to have a game, ready to buy/download/whatever, and then a website - something that will make people think, "Hey, it might be worth working with these guys - they know how to get a project done", because we have all seen in the past, loads of projects that never get finished for whatever reason. Then you will find more people will come forward and things could well snowball after that.

[Cammy]

We will have games to put on the site by the time the site is finished. The games we've been failing to finish over the last few years aren't the only Amiga games that are being worked on.

Horace, while I think your deaf comment was a joke, it's not what I found insulting, it's every single other post from you so far in this thread that is constantly trying to pick on the idea and bring us down. You haven't offered to help once, only threatening to keep your games to yourself until you approve of our project. Sitting back saying "I think you need to do this, don't do that, do what I say or I'm leaving" doesn't help anyone at all! Your constant negativity is turning what should be a constructive thread into a pointless argument.

Zetro, what you're suggesting is similar to what we already had, a forum for all the Underground Arcade developers to work together with a section for posting resources, like old graphics, code examples, game makers, samples and anything else we found useful at the time. Unfortunately all of that is gone now, and it's been beyond our control since the start, since it was an online friend taking care of the site who wasn't always around. We would like to start again with a new forum and developer resource area. but I think it would be better as a subsection of a larger Amiga site, like this one or UtilityBase. If people have no problem discussing the development of their games here, then it would just be a waste of time making a whole new forum somewhere else and trying to convince everyone to post there. Look what happened to the old one, it went offline for two weeks, but after that no one came back once it was online again.

By the way, what does everyone else think Underground Arcade is? Is it a whole group of Amiga people helping each other to make great games, or is it two people trying to handle everything themselves, copping the blame for everything that goes wrong. Is everyone else just waiting for myself or Rebel to make the first move? We have ideas, but it seems no one likes them. Other people have ideas, but they don't seem to want to do anything for themselves. Where does that leave us? As a group without a leader, aimless and unable to move forward it seems.

This is pointless. I'm going to go and playtest some games, I might not be able to program them myself yet, but someone needs to play the hell out of these things and find all the bugs before we can show it to the world. If anyone else is still working on a game and needs a playtester, I'll give it my best shot.

[NovaCoder]

Originally Posted by Graham Humphrey

I would say that it is more important to have a game, ready to buy/download/whatever, and then a website - something that will make people think, "Hey, it might be worth working with these guys - they know how to get a project done", because we have all seen in the past, loads of projects that never get finished for whatever reason. Then you will find more people will come forward and things could well snowball after that.

Yep I agree, actions always speak louder than words. UA has been talked about for a long long time but so far only one game has been finished and not much else has actually happened. Based on activity to-date, I don't think anything much will happen going forward either (but I'd love to be proved wrong).

When I first heard about the idea of UA I thought it sounded great. A laid-back place for hobbyist Amiga coders to hang out, swap ideas, find resources and help with each other's projects, but unfortunately it didn't turn out to be anything like that

[Cammy]

NovaCoder, what do you think Underground Arcade turned out to be? What exactly went wrong, and where? Who are you blaming?

[Hungry Horace]

Originally Posted by Cammy

Horace, while I think your deaf comment was a joke,

well it wasnt. the thought didnt cross my mind, and i have apologised for that.

it's every single other post from you so far in this thread that is constantly trying to pick on the idea and bring us down.
You haven't offered to help once, only threatening to keep your games to yourself until you approve of our project. Sitting back saying "I think you need to do this, don't do that, do what I say or I'm leaving" doesn't help anyone at all! Your constant negativity is turning what should be a constructive thread into a pointless argument.

actually, have a read back, and you'll see what i've done is raise questions. Sometimes i think ones you dont want me asking, because i am certainly not hearing any answers, all i've had here is just a general level of defensiveness.

As i said at the start, I like(d) (a lot) the original idea. Why else would I be here taking this abuse?


Not offered to help? offering to arrange hosting. offering to contribute various games i am coding. making (some) graphics and sound/music. Offered to write a development diary so at least you'd have some kind of "regular" update shown. Even in this thread, have looked to arrange a new Project with Graham that can under the "UA" banner - none of these are enough?

hey,i've mentioned ways you can achieve your 'goal' of an amiga compatible site without building it entirely from scratch... but still, apparently all i am doing is trying to "bring you down."

Improvement is only built on criticism. Without it you will only be left contented with the status quo.


I'm not saying i'm leaving Cammy - because, quite honestly, what is there to leave? I've said i'd like to be a part of a project like this, but if I say something, i either get ignored, or you respond like this.


Why ask people if they want to be involved if you dont want their input?

Originally Posted by NovaCoder

When I first heard about the idea of UA I thought it sounded great. A laid-back place for hobbyist Amiga coders to hang out, swap ideas, find resources and help with each other's projects, but unfortunately it didn't turn out to be anything like that

^^ it seems i am not the only one of such an opinion.

Originally Posted by Cammy

what do you think Underground Arcade turned out to be? What exactly went wrong, and where? Who are you blaming?

why does it have to be about blame?

[Biscuit]

I've been quietly interested in this for some time, and would even like to help in some small way despite my lack of knowledge about game dev on Amiga. So for now I'd like to offer my thoughts.

Reading through this thread it seems the site is for two main purposes.

1. A place to get new/available Amiga games and info about them.
2. A place for game developers and enthusiasts to talk and share ideas.

One problem I see is that you want a community to come together but have nothing to lead the way with. If you want to work on your games privately (for whatever reasons) then it becomes a separate matter from the website. And you need some kind of meaningful regular activity on the site. I was very pleased to see a site like UA online. After a while though, nothing much was happening. It looked like a nice but static site, with a forum that was hard to join and had a small amount of activity on it. Not much to come back for, and so I stopped.

The best two ideas I've seen for regular content that will attract people are
1. Production diaries.
2. Tutorials and resources.

A games database would be good, but there aren't any so that's sorted. This is one reason not to worry about building a professional database driven site yet.

With your games being secret you'll have to outsource for other people's diaries. Do some liaising, plus there is one offer already. Tutorials and resources would be the responsibility of the site admins. Use them to encourage new hobbyist programmers. By providing the learning resources you'll keep the scene alive. Collect up existing info and get permission to reprint it. Recommend software for different tasks and open it up for discussion in the comments or forum. Make how-to guides. Ask other people to write guides. Making sure it's easy for noobs or people refreshing to find what they want.

The next problem I see is the conflict between your vision for the site as a community based facilitator for new game releases and your thoughts of creating a business model. I know of only one commercial Amiga game to have been released in the last few years. Not enough to worry about anything more than a few screenshots and a hyperlink for now. There is no obvious business here. You really need to seriously test the waters and find out how much of a community there is. Attract them to the site, and then decide if it's at all viable later. It'll be hard to know until you have a near finished product to price up and sell, or a demo to give away for free (number of downloads is a helpful indicator). And a side note regarding marketing, don't mention any deadlines unless you can guarantee they will be met. Saves you from disappointed readers.

With regard to the website I think you're forgetting that content is king. So long as it isn't ugly, people who like the content will start using it. Then you can work towards improvements as and when needed. You'll probably dismiss this quickly, but if I were in your position I'd start up on a free wordpress blog pointed at the .com domain, and link it to a forum hosted by one of the helpful people here. It's the most efficient way to move forward. Worry about a database driven site when you have more than 10 games to catalogue, and over a 100 subpages. The reason I mention wordpress is because it can have multiple hierarchical authors (perfect for production diaries), searchable blog, basic cms options with pages and subpages, traffic stats, rss, it's very easy to use and you don't have to worry about any SEO or updates until you outgrow the platform. You won't be able to make it look exactly as you want (unless you install it on your own space), but there are enough free 3rd party solutions to get this off the ground quickly. Why waste money on an idea that you have no idea how well (or badly) it will go? I think this is the best business approach to take for now. And don't worry about ibrowse etc, most Miggy users surf on other PCs as well.

Hope there's something of worth in all that. I want things to go well for you, and if you want any basic help like a site moderator or whatever I'd be interested.

[Cammy]

Thanks for assuming we have no idea and are completely clueless about the Amiga scene.

[pmc]

How rude.

The more I read the more accurate this is:

Originally Posted by HungryHorace

It seems as if trying to help is only greeted with hostility.

[Biscuit]

Originally Posted by Cammy

Thanks for assuming we have no idea and are completely clueless about the Amiga scene.

I made no such assumption. If my suggestions seem obvious then I'm unsure why you haven't tried more of them already.

Originally Posted by Cammy

NovaCoder, what do you think Underground Arcade turned out to be? What exactly went wrong, and where? Who are you blaming?

I know this wasn't directed specifically at me, but don't post the question publicly if you don't want an answer.

[Cammy]

Originally Posted by Biscuit

you want a community to come together but have nothing to lead the way with
There is no obvious business here. You really need to seriously test the waters and find out how much of a community there is.
I think you're forgetting that content is king
Why waste money on an idea that you have no idea how well (or badly) it will go?

No such assumption?

[Cammy]

Originally Posted by pmc

How rude.

The more I read the more accurate this is:

Originally Posted by HungryHorace
It seems as if trying to help is only greeted with hostility.

This isn't hostility, it's sarcasm.

[skateblind]

Wow Cammy, you really know how to get a community started. Ask people if they are still interested and then insult or argue with them. Since everyone else has been trying to help, I think I will too.

Get over yourself and then maybe think about continuing UA.
Paying for Amiga games is not going to work.
Fighting with future members, supporters and developers will not work too.

Anyway, good luck.

[Biscuit]

Originally Posted by Cammy

No such assumption?

You're being way too defensive. Just because I pointed out problems and things I think you could do better doesn't automatically mean I'm saying you have "no idea and are completely clueless".

For what it's worth - I've given my constructive advice, so I may as well give a more critical opinion and see if that gets the message home.

The two basic problems I believe are holding you back are that the site admins are under-estimating the work, and specifically the type of work, required to build such a niche community. And it's disorganized.

Earlier you said.

Originally Posted by Cammy

Zetro, what you're suggesting is similar to what we already had, a forum for all the Underground Arcade developers to work together with a section for posting resources, like old graphics, code examples, game makers, samples and anything else we found useful at the time. Unfortunately all of that is gone now,

Posting some code examples and some old graphics in a forum thread is not the same as creating tutorial articles and goal orientated graphics databases. Things like that would be best placed on a proper page of a well written and indexed website. Worse still, you didn't save any of what you posted. To not save it reflects the value you place on it.

To the outside observer it seems you just put a website up with a forum and expected things to happen by themselves. You got a handful of people interested but without guidance it went nowhere. You summed it up fairly well yourself.

Originally Posted by Cammy

By the way, what does everyone else think Underground Arcade is? Is it a whole group of Amiga people helping each other to make great games, or is it two people trying to handle everything themselves, copping the blame for everything that goes wrong. Is everyone else just waiting for myself or Rebel to make the first move? We have ideas, but it seems no one likes them. Other people have ideas, but they don't seem to want to do anything for themselves. Where does that leave us? As a group without a leader, aimless and unable to move forward it seems.

I think you need a leader to get this off the ground. What puzzles me is why none of you are actually doing it?

Finally, your 'sarcasm' is hostile and alienating people who want to help.

[pmc]

Originally Posted by Cammy

This isn't hostility, it's sarcasm.

No - it's defensive, dismissive and childish.

Please, re-read the advice posted here by countless other people who I believe are honestly giving you advice and offering help with all the best of intentions and, rather than immediately post something else negative, sit and think.

If, after taking this time to rationally think, rather than irrationally blurt another post, you still can't see that people have been trying to help then please, next time don't start a thread asking for help you don't actually want - it's a waste of everyone's time...

...coincidentally just like Underground Arcade seems to be.

[StingRay]

Originally Posted by Cammy

This isn't hostility, it's sarcasm.

Please look up the definition of sarcasm!

Originally Posted by pmc

No - it's defensive, dismissive and childish.

Please, re-read the advice posted here by countless other people who I believe are honestly giving you advice and offering help with all the best of intentions and, rather than immediately post something else negative, sit and think.

If, after taking this time to rationally think, rather than irrationally blurt another post, you still can't see that people have been trying to help then please, next time don't start a thread asking for help you don't actually want - it's a waste of everyone's time...

...coincidentally just like Underground Arcade seems to be.

Totally agree with you PMC, exactly what I was thinking! The more I read this thread the more I get the impression that help is neither wanted nor needed!

[Retro1234]

Overall I think Underground Arcade has good ideas and I enjoyed the halloween demo and DOTT

[Rebel-CD32]

Thanks Boo Boo, it's nice to see some positivity and encouragement around here. We appreciated and enjoyed your work with Viddi restoring Super Street Fighter II for AGA machines.

Before this thread is derailed further, I'd like to get a few things cleared up so we can all better understand each other. Let's not start taking sides, ganging up or joining in on arguments purely to fuel the fire.

A few people are under the impression that advice has been ignored. Advice has been to reregister the domain, write production diaries, create a new forum, make a template-based website, make a communal blog, collect years worth of source material, guides, example files, graphics and sound libraries, write tutorials on game creation, list recommended software, ask people for help, stop asking people for help, and finish making our own games before discussing matters further.

It's not that advice has been ignored, it's all being taken into consideration, but you can't expect instant results and proof that your advice has been followed so soon.

Believe it or not, the few games being worked on by the people in this thread aren't the only Amiga games in development. Several other teams around the world are working on new games for Amiga platforms (Classic Amiga, OS3+RTG, OS4, MorphOS, Aros) which are nearing completion faster than the ones we're working on ourselves. The reason we wanted to get a website made before finishing our own games is to establish the site by the time one of these games comes out. These games might otherwise go unnoticed as most releases in recent years have, but by having them all available from one site it will help give the games more exposure and at the same time establish Underground Arcade as the website to check first for new Amiga game releases.

If we were to make this site, it might only show screen-shots of a couple of upcoming games at first, but eventually more games will be added to the "Coming Soon" category, as other games eventually become available to download/purchase. As the site grows, other sections can be added, such as tutorials, helpful compatibility lists, blogs/twitter/forums, links to new hardware to play the games on... the sky is the limit. But I think we have to start off small, and rely a little on the people who are already talented enough to make Amiga games, without having to worry about creating an "Amiga Games Development School" right off the bat. Of course, if anyone already has all the appropriate content (tutorials/manuals/examples) to contribute, then we can add that to the site straight away.

I think some people may be a little unfair in underestimating the amount of effort Cammy has already put into this project and her involvement with the Amiga community so far. If you follow her posts throughout this and various other Amiga forums, she has consistently tried to help Amiga users with their problems, offering advice based on experience because she uses Amigas every day in her life. She has joined in with several software and hardware projects as a beta tester and bug tracker, introduced like-minded developers to one-another, written tutorials and reviews of her own, compiled lists of links to Amiga game projects in development, Amiga-related magazines, software and hardware that many people might not realise even exist.

Cammy is also one of the most honest and humble people I have ever known. She selflessly offers to help any chance she gets without expecting credit or recognition, and is curious to learn more for herself as well. If you assume she can't "get over herself" to continue Underground Arcade, you have drawn a very deluded conclusion about her. She may have an odd personality or a strange sense of humour, but she has nothing but good intentions and enthusiasm for the entire Amiga platform, and she's certainly not egotistical. I think she just feels overwhelmed at the moment, and acts a little defensively when all she reads are lectures on what she should be doing without considering that maybe she already has done her research, built up a network of Amiga software and hardware developers throughout the international community, and thought long and hard about turning Underground Arcade into a successful business.

How many hours a week do you think about and discuss with friends ideas for creating a successful Amiga-related business in 2009? I can assure you, it's something Cammy hasn't stopped thinking about for the past few years, along with myself and a few other members of the team who we chat with on IRC regularly.

We all want to see new Amiga games made, and I'm sure making them yourself and playing what you've made gives you the same happy sense of satisfaction as it does for me. We realise that to some people the Amiga is a fun hobby, and to others it's still the career they grew up dreaming about. We're not deluded enough to think we'll get rich from this, we just want to keep the dream alive. Underground Arcade should be a chance for both casual and devoted Amiga developers to present their games to the community in one place.

Perhaps we should discuss whether we need our own private forum, or if the Amiga Games Factory is a good enough place for us to host our developer threads? The only problem I see is for those people who want to keep their project a secret at first, and don't want anyone outside the group/forum finding out. Since this forum is public, a few developers may not feel comfortable posting about their projects at all, and won't receive the help they need. The problem with creating a new, private forum, is first trying to convince everyone to sign up on yet another forum, and then constantly moderating new memberships, checking up on who is signing up before allowing them access. This was necessary to respect the privacy of the developers who don't want casual observers signing up, reading everything, and publicly blabbing about the games before they're ready to be announced. I'm not saying all of us feel this way about keeping our early projects private, but we have to allow for those developers who do feel extra secretive.

Also, contrary to popular belief, the EAB works fine in IBrowse on classic Amigas without resorting to the Mobile version. The layout and functionality is there, it's just the tables have no colour, but neither does the mobile version which is more unreadable when viewed in IBrowse.

[skateblind]

Why the big testimonial of Cammy's achievements? I don't think anyone is doubting her ability or commitment. I just think she has responded badly to genuine enthuisiasm by others, people are not ganging up on her, but instead responding to some of the odd comments she has made.

A fair few people have expressed an interest, some of them have even offered advice or points of views and a few offered to contribute. Horace offered loads of things, he even said he would convince FOL to host UA. He did not get a reply from anyone regarding that and so this happened.

Originally Posted by HungryHorace

Hosting etc has already been offered by FOL & mihcael , but has fallen on deaf ears.

Originally Posted by Cammy

Ha ha ha, funny joke!

We look forward to more hilarious and insulting contributions from you in the future.

I am 99.99% sure Horace did not mean this intentionally, I have known HH over the net for a long time and not once has he intentionally been an arse to me. He can be rather annoying with his evil jesting , but apparently I am just too sensitive.

Concerning the very first post:

Yes, people are interested, get the site made, then tell people about it and let them join in their own time. Now get on with it and leave this thread before this shambles continues any further and ruins the reputation/respect of the site.

My only problem with the site: Paying for games. Some of the future games on there might have been released for free anyway, so why would I now want to pay for it? Unless you are going to put it in a box with a manual and so on, I will not pay for a single game, sorry, but that is just the way I feel.
Trying to make a business out of such old hardware in the year 2009(10?) makes no sense to me at all.
Are there companies/sites selling any new games for the megadrive(genesis),snes, saturn or what ever other computers or consoles there were in that generation? Knowing my luck, there probably is.

I understand you want to maybe sell games for the newer OS's and hardware, but still that is very limited market. The games would have to be spectacular to convince anyone that they are not better off buying something similar for their PC/MAC or their latest console. It might work if you sell each game for no more than a £1, but even then I won't be buying any. Yes, I am a cheap skate(blind) and my decision is also based on (rubbish)principles. Maybe you could do well selling the stuff and it just might be a new revival of Amiga gaming.

I wouldn't pay for any of Horace's stuff, unless he made Serious Aliens or Serious F1. I doubt he would sell it though, so luckily my cheap ways will be rewarded in the end. I bet he starts to sell his future releases just to spite me.

I hope you guys and gals manage to get a decent site or community running, you have a lot of support from everyone, good luck.

[Selur]

Hello skateblind

Maybe You tell me why when I try get to AF i got
"Sorry Guest, you are banned from using this forum!
Foul language and abusive comments" msg ?

[Graham Humphrey]

That's it, I'm fed up with you trolling here too.

Clear off you nasty piece of work.