Why so few NEW Amiga intros, demos, etc.?

[StingRay]

Originally Posted by Crown

StingRay: Sorry you won't manage to piss me off, your angry words simpky give me a good laugh.

Laugh as much as you want, if you think I want to piss you off you didn't understand anything I wrote in this thread. Which, in turn, makes me laugh.

I joined the Amiga scene long before 2000 and the birth of Scarab

Surprise surprise, so did I. What exactly do you want to tell me with that anyway? And even if you joined the scene back in 1911 (yeah, cheap jokes ftw \o/) I would still have written exactly the same anyway.

And I suggest that you would read: http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=46700 !

Again, what do you want to tell me with that? Apparently you think you know me while in fact you have no clue who or how I am. Anyway, I find this all rather amusing as all the assumptions you made so far are wrong.

[Mungo]

Got to admit that I've been tentatively putting something together for a little while now. Not Amiga though - Why stick to the old technology when there's new hardware to explore? Flames to the usual address always welcome.

And when I say 'tentatively', what I mean is this:

- I get in touch with some old ATX members and ask if they want to do something. They agree and there is enthusiasm.
- I talk to some coder friends, they agree and there is more enthusiasm.
- We start to do some stuff and I/they remember just how much work all of that kind of stuff was.
- Things fizzle out and a year passes
- Repeat process from step 1...

What we're missing, as Photon has already alluded to, is young and keen talent who still have the buzz, and spare time, to do these things. Most of us 'old heads' have been there, seen it and done it. It may sound conceited, but we've not much left to prove. Besides, we've all got other things to do now and life has moved on. It _does_ still irk me that Anthrox never had a 'Mental Hangover' - IE, a scene changing demo. But then not many groups did!

It's my opinion that the rise in the console is largely to blame. Once you lost the keyboard and the disk-drive, you lost the ability to do your own thing. Yes, there's the Mac and PC. But they're not exactly appealing to the young gamer/geek in their cheapest forms. Sell the Xbox 360, Wii or PS3 with a decent OS, keyboard & mouse and a free compiler and you'll see a whole new scene.

Of course, some things that made the scene what is was will never come back. Mail trading? Why bother? BBS systems? Pointless. And let's not forget that a large part of the scene was driven by piracy. Good luck running an illegal group these days.

What does excite me is the level of collaboration that the Internet could provide. All of the geographical boundaries of the old days are now, effectively, gone. Plus the use of central code respositories and automated build systems could make it so, so easy for everyone to work on the same project. The possibilities, organisationally at least, are mind blowing.

[Photon]

Not exactly mail trading, but there's a lot of selling and co-op orders in the arcade and unusual consoles "scenes", and therefore a bit more of the old feeling/give and take. Also comics and unusual computers, although eBay etc has minimized that.

Everywhere where there is homebrew, young talent that can be molded exists (insert evil laughter and rubbing of hands, oh and bushy eyebrows). I'm not super sure, but I think there's at least a little in iPhone/Xbox (not 360), maybe NDS and Pandora too. PS3 - not sure. Dunno if anyone but seasoned gamedevs even know/care about the demoscene. Wii is possible, since the docs seem to be there.

Windows - well, there's not much new hardware to explore there - maybe some new nice shader or some trick distributing code over the GPU. I mean, the new hardware works like the old hardware, hardware differs a little from each machine and so on. There's Larrabee, but bending that from inside the current framework will be hard and incompatible.

The conclusion for most of us is that to a) do something impressive, you need a fixed and limited platform (at least not "GHz") and b) make a new type of demo, you need a platform that is distinct from the others (ie., "not plug in some c code in a wrapper and wham! it's in the pixelbuffer"). The 4K etc categories are an attempt at the former.

Even if it's neither impressive nor new, bending a chipset is the only thing worthwhile for me. And so when looking on the choices of platforms, Amiga looks attractive again to those who want to at least have fun while doing all that work

Of the modern CPUs, ARM is the most attractive CPU to code in asm. Most of those sit in portable [gaming] devices. As long as the hw docs are there, they could be attractive.



The boundaries are gone but in its place is internet in our kitchens stealing everyone's cycles.

[Mungo]

Agree about Windows. There are some impressive demos out there, but they tend to be very design led. And, as you say, forget hitting the hardware directly.

The Pandora looks very impressive indeed. I dearly hope it gets some market traction and doesn't go the way of many cool devices that came before it. Byterapers have already put a demo together on the hardware platform it'll be using, so that's an awesome sign that there may be a scene.

What I was alluding to was that we all got into the scene from being able to be creative on the hardware that we had. I remember seeing my first crack intro and thinking 'I want to be a part of that' [the scene]. How is your average 15 year old kid going to do that with their Xbox or PS3? With the old platforms, we had nearly everything we needed to be creative given to us when we purchased the machine. Or, at least, we didn't have to pay a huge chunk of money for a development environment. How many of us learned BASIC as a first language, for example? Or had an obscene amount of fun with DPaint when they found it bundled with their Amiga? Those days have been gone for a long time.

But the Pandora has given me some hope that things might change. I certainly hope so. The device just needs to be a success. And it will be interesting to see what happens on the iPhone, Andriod devices e.t.c. There's a lot of potential there.

The Internet scares me. It pays my wages, gives me entertainment and imparts knowledge upon me. I feel like I am now sucking at the teat of technology

[lost_lemming]

well if anyone wants some amiga made music (octamed) for their demo's. im the man everything from acid-house to newage ambient techno stuff.

[lucadip]

Originally Posted by Crown

I am always astonished by the amount of releases that see the light on C64 vs our beloved Amiga.

It is of course true, independently of the contents of modern demos which changed noticeably on both platforms. I believe the amiga scene does not compare in quantity to the c64 one because of a couple of reasons:

- there is only one C64, except for some extetic changes. The only difference is the new sid chip producing a slight different sound from the older one, but apart from that, it is always the same computer and there is only _one_ way to develop on it. The amiga, being more flexible, has been produced in several different hw and os combinations, which fragmented the amiga community in smaller groups (or factions...).

- the amiga is way more evolved than the c64 and is therefore more complex to program than the c64. The time and the efforts required on the amiga to produce a modern, successful demo are incomparable to those required on the c64 (though it takes a long time on the c64 as well)

Of course, given my passion for the amiga, I would love to see even more demos being produced but, as StingRay clearly stated, the best way to accomplish that is to code demos myself, which my wife would not appreciate...

[pmc]

Originally Posted by lucadip

the amiga is way more evolved than the c64 and is therefore more complex to program than the c64.

In my opinion, and from my experience with coding on both platforms, that is not true at all.

As an example - you want to change the screen colour at a certain line:

On the Amiga - use the copper. Nice and easy. Bang. Done.

On the C64 - program a double interrupt (or some other stable raster method eg. sync to sprite) and use some clever timed nop trick to synchronise the video beam *exactly* to the processor cycles your code is using and then you can change the background colour and get a stable colour change.

There are many other examples, like opening the top and bottom and sideborders on C64 that also require cycle exact code. It's actually a real challenge to code on that machine.

I say, C64 demoscene coders:

EDIT: By the way, just so I don't offend anyone (hi Sting, hi Photon) I also say, Amiga demoscene coders:

[lucadip]

Are we talking about the same computers?
You are probably mistaking more complex (amiga) with more tricky (c64).

The programming model on the amiga is more complex simply because you have to cope with several components (blitter, copper and the other coprocessors) whereas on the c64 you only program for the 6510 (the only coprocessor being the sid).

Asm for the 6510 is way easier to learn and use than for the MC680x0: wanna compare the addressing modes on both?

I remember programming on the c64 like comfortable but hairy, whereas on the amiga I appreciate the elegance but respect the complexity.

[pmc]

@ lucadip - reread my post - I said in "in my opinion and from my experience". I didn't say you were wrong - if you disagree then that's entirely fair enough - each to their own as they say... Besides, good discussions are fun - if everyone had the same opinion it would be a dull world.

Originally Posted by lucadip

The programming model on the amiga is more complex simply because you have to cope with several components (blitter, copper and the other coprocessors)

Are those components difficult to use or are they actually quite easy to use and simplify certain tasks that otherwise might not be so easy? I think the latter. For example, filling polygons with the blitter on the Amiga versus coding an EOR filler routine on the C64.

Originally Posted by lucadip

Asm for the 6510 is way easier to learn and use than for the MC680x0: wanna compare the addressing modes on both?

In my experience one was no more difficult to learn than the other. Once learned, I personally find things like having more registers available and those powerful addressing modes actually make manipulating data easier. This is definitely just a matter of personal taste though.

Originally Posted by lucadip

I remember programming on the c64 like comfortable but hairy, whereas on the amiga I appreciate the elegance but respect the complexity.

If you've coded both have you got any cool routines to show us? - I always like seeing new code.

[lucadip]

Originally Posted by pmc

@ lucadip - reread my post - I said in "in my opinion and from my experience". I didn't say you were wrong - if you disagree then that's entirely fair enough - each to their own as they say...

pmc, I have read your post and didn't mean you are dumb either. I am just passionate when it comes to discuss about c64 and amiga, which I love in equal measure!

In my experience one was no more difficult to learn than the other. Once learned, I personally find things like having more registers available and those powerful addressing modes actually make manipulating data easier. This is definitely just a matter of personal taste though.

Fair enough. I remember, though, buying "The programmer's Handbook", the RKRMs and a 680x0 reference along with my first amiga and being shocked at the size of those manuals compared to those I had with my c64. That might also be the reason why I'm still convinced to date that the amiga is more complex.

If you've coded both have you got any cool routines to show us? - I always like seeing new code.

New code? Man, I didn't program on an amiga or 64 since ages.... Anyway, I would love to, but I'm afraid I have never coded anything really worth to show.
If I have understood properly, you are still active: have you got anything interesting (c64 || amiga) to look at?

[bonkers]

I don't think the complexity of developing for one machine or the other has much to do with it. Of course doing the same effect on both machines it's most often a lot trickier on a C64 compared to the Amiga. However, just because of that there are different standards of what is acceptable to release are on the machines and I do think that the state-of-the-art demos on each machine requires about the same amount of time and talent to produce.

Possibly one thing that the C64 has as an advantage compared to the Amiga is the social structure of the scene. The C64 groups have for a number of years done thing separately from the remainder of the scene, this way they have managed to build a very nice environment and social structure. Us Amiga sceners have been trying to be a part of the scene in general and now find ourselves marginalised to quite a large extent.

[pmc]

Originally Posted by lucadip

pmc, I have read your post and didn't mean you are dumb either.

No worries man - no offence taken.

Originally Posted by lucadip

I am just passionate when it comes to discuss about c64 and amiga, which I love in equal measure!

Me too - that's where we do agree entirely.

Originally Posted by lucadip

New code? Man, I didn't program on an amiga or 64 since ages....

Bearing in mind you love the machines you should start again! \o/

Originally Posted by lucadip

If I have understood properly, you are still active: have you got anything interesting (c64 || amiga) to look at?

Yeah I'm still doing my best to bash out code. It's not always that great but it's fun to do.

The Retro Megademo is coming soon. \o/ If you've got any ideas and you get that "I need to code" feeling again you could always contribute a routine to it...?

Originally Posted by bonkers

I do think that the state-of-the-art demos on each machine requires about the same amount of time and talent to produce.

You can't argue with that - when it comes to state of the art demo releases then whatever platform the demo was produced on the two things it definitely takes is time and talent.

Originally Posted by bonkers

Possibly one thing that the C64 has as an advantage compared to the Amiga is the social structure of the scene. The C64 groups have for a number of years done thing separately from the remainder of the scene, this way they have managed to build a very nice environment and social structure.

You may have a point there - the C64 guys really love their machine and are really die hard fanatics - they care about the C64 only! And why not, hey you gotta go where the heart is right? Good luck to them - they produce great releases that I love to watch.

[MagerValp]

Originally Posted by lucadip

The time and the efforts required on the amiga to produce a modern, successful demo are incomparable to those required on the c64

I don't understand why you'd say that - in both cases they require several months of hard work, typically spread out over a year or two. And more limited hardware capabilities does not mean that it's easier, or less work, but instead requires you to do more with less.

[lucadip]

Originally Posted by MagerValp

I don't understand why you'd say that - in both cases they require several months of hard work, typically spread out over a year or two. And more limited hardware capabilities does not mean that it's easier, or less work, but instead requires you to do more with less.

Ehm, in fact right after that I wrote:

Originally Posted by lucadip

(though it takes a long time on the c64 as well)

And I didn't mean that programming on the 64 is easy either, I probably didn't explain clearly enough what I meant writing "the amiga is more complex" (see my response to pmc for that).
I do love the C64 (I lurk on the cbm-hackers ml as well), it was my first computer and it surely is thanks to it that now I work as a software developer.
At the X-Party I had the chance to chat with Krill and look at his code and I know it's not easy at all to develop on the 64 (also based on some personal, remote experience).

Lookng forward to hearing your opinions!

[lucadip]

Originally Posted by pmc

Bearing in mind you love the machines you should start again! \o/

Actually, I've felt that need again and again. That's why I'm doing something for the scene at least: a new platform for the High Voltage sid collection. Of course, it's not coded on the 64 (not even on the amiga...), but it makes me feel better!

Originally Posted by pmc

The Retro Megademo is coming soon. \o/ If you've got any ideas and you get that "I need to code" feeling again you could always contribute a routine to it...?

I'm looking forward to seeing your demo. And thanks for the invitation, if the amiga coding-fever starts again I will knock at your, ehm, profile!

[pmc]

Originally Posted by lucadip

Actually, I've felt that need again and again. That's why I'm doing something for the scene at least: a new platform for the High Voltage sid collection.

Cool. I love the HVSC - in fact I've been listening to it this morning - I use Acid64 and a HardSID 4u. Definitely keep me informed of what happens with that.

Originally Posted by lucadip

I'm looking forward to seeing your demo. And thanks for the invitation, if the amiga coding-fever starts again I will knock at your, ehm, profile!

Nice one.

[DH]

Hey pmc, hows this mega demo going, Pm me 'n' let me know mate!

[pmc]

PM sent DH.

[Jope]

Originally Posted by lucadip

whereas on the c64 you only program for the 6510 (the only coprocessor being the sid).

Well, you need to know the ins and outs of the VIC-II and the CIA chips too in order to be able to successfully perform any frame synced non-trivial effect.

Naturally if you want, you can just code for 8x8 with only the 6510, but that won't get you any respect.. ;-)