11 November 2023, 22:49 | #41 | ||||||
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I think you misunderstand me completely, Thomas.
The goal as I see it is for small or standalone programs to be distributed without being accompanied by a list of requirements beyond the hardware and OS, including library versions (and for installers, even the Installer version). That is to say, a bootable product which contains all it needs to run correctly. If files required by the OS to do simple things are not allowed to accompany the executable, no bootable product is possible at all. (This also includes bootable hardware products.) Quote:
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Quite apart from that though, the Amiga needs a way to distribute bootable software products. Quote:
Mobile phones allows emulation to be - mobile. That's all. Maybe you don't see a benefit in that, but others might. Quote:
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Plenty of software for PC (that use an installer) come bundled with specific versions of DLLs, and some include entire outdated frameworks. While this causes bloat, it also ensures that the software doesn't break if newer versions of components have been installed since. This relates to Amiga, look no further than req/tools.library. It relates to this thread, because by not allowing redistributing OS components, all bootable media is disallowed. Meanwhile, there are plenty of software products that must be booted separate from a working OS installation on permanent media: All software for Amiga computer lacking such, software that must fit in the memory of the system ("buy more RAM" is still invalid), and software that tests the hardware or analyzes or enhances such a permanent installation. These examples can't function without redistributed components because the OS itself requires the components, either on a redistributed OS installation disk set, or once copied from such disks to permanent storage after successful installation. This obviously makes the OS ransomware, because no bootable product can ever be written for the OS other than OS installation disks. This is unacceptable on any platform, and many courts have dealt with this issue. Current rights owners are not in the right here. Last edited by Photon; 11 November 2023 at 22:56. |
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12 November 2023, 11:31 | #42 | ||||||||||||||
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Reqtools is not part of AmigaOs, and other restrictions may or may not arise for redistributing it. Reqtools is neither necessary to run software. asl can provide the same services, and is part of the Os. Quote:
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It is unacceptable to have self-booting media in the PC market since at least 50 years or so, and for the Amiga probably unnecessary since at least 30 years or so. Since when could you redistribute parts of Windows or MacOs to make a product self-booting? This concept does not even exist there... It is a "non-problem" you are somehow trying to make a problem. |
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12 November 2023, 21:05 | #43 |
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I think Photo provided Asm source code that included the font binary into the program and then modified the structures so that you didn't have to use diskfont.library.
I remember trying it with helvetica.font and it worked well If you can convert that program to blitzbasic 2 then that should take care of the problem but I don't know how easy it is to do with BlitzBasic 2. |
13 November 2023, 08:41 | #44 |
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13 November 2023, 08:55 | #45 |
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Which - if you are talking about PC software - all does *not* depend on the native operating system there. And "lots" is probably not quite right. *Some*. If you compare that to the Amiga: Why would you need diskfont (or other non-ROM based code) for such software?
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13 November 2023, 09:39 | #46 | |
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On PC in context of bootable/self-booting software I would say that the "native operating system" of the machine is the BIOS (and some software will depend on that), not the other OS (or multiple OSes) found on the machine's external disks. |
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13 November 2023, 12:17 | #47 |
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There are two pretty extreme approaches being taken here.
As I've already pointed out, portions of the OS are commercial and are licencable, because otherwise where do you draw the line? All releases of the OS after 3.1 can involve loading modules from disk. If you need to include some OS3.2 parts for your program to work when self-booting, how much of 3.2 can you include before it's simply a pirate copy of 3.2? Yes, a version of the OS has already been bought if the user has an Amiga, but which version? If you have an A1200, did that automatically come with a licence for Workbench 1.3? And as for why diskfont.library or self-booting would ever be needed, comparing to the relatively modern PC world isn't really a good approach here. Unlike the PC world, there are plenty of users out there who still have 1MB A500s with no hard drives. If you're lucky a Gotek might be included, but even that's not guaranteed. And some people *like* the nostalgia of a system like that and don't want to use it a different way. Yes, of course it's easy to say a hard drive is required, but if your software is a simple game that would otherwise work on such a machine, then it's a shame to exclude what is effectively the target machine. In my case, I got a lot of feedback from people commenting on being unable to boot from the game disk. It was possible to boot Workbench first, then run it from the game disk, and it was possible to simply drag the game to a hard drive, but at that point a 1MB A500 didn't have enough free RAM. So I included instructions on the disk to copy over a couple of files from Workbench that would make the game disk bootable. Regarding the diskfont.library issue specifically, this is a Blitz Basic problem (and this discussion is in a Blitz Basic board). Being Basic, the standard method of printing text to the console or to a bitmap isn't to use OpenFont(), but to use the Basic font-rendering commands like Print and Format. And if you use any of the built-in font rendering commands (regardless of whether you're opening a disk-based font or not), Blitz will make the executable automatically open diskfont.library, and it will fail to work if the library isn't present. This is regardless of whether it's a system-friendly application or a game that bangs the hardware directly, and isn't something the developer can avoid except by not using any commands from the provided font-rendering library at all (including the humble Print and Str$() commands). The latest version of AmiBlitz (3.9.9) has a workaround to remove the diskfont.library requirement, but that version has its own issues with stability, and of course this doesn't solve the problem for anyone using an earlier version, anyone using Blitz 2.1, or any pre-existing executables. |
13 November 2023, 19:05 | #48 | |
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OK, let's clean the thread. OP has multiple answers now.
Specifically, PC etc. discussion ends here. AmigaOS is not designed like other OSes, and this is highly relevant to the topic. Any other OS is irrelevant. Quote:
When distributing OS-friendly software, these files must be redistributed because the OS is designed so. Anything else will be viewed as providing an OS in such a way as to prevent software vendors from distributing software for that OS, and this violates competition laws in Europe and Antitrust law in USA. I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not providing legal advice. This hereby ends licensing discussions for programming topics. Programming solutions include:
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13 November 2023, 20:18 | #49 |
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So BlitzBasic opens diskfont.library without really needing it? Isn't there option 4 to create a stub replacement that does just enough to keep BB happy?
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the topic. Could someone make a very simple disk that shows the issue just printing "Hello world" or whatever (or share another freely distributable example)? I.e. a disk that would work if only diskfont.library was available. |
17 February 2024, 14:51 | #50 |
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This is silly. Every Amiga user already has a licence to use the OS because it is built-in on ROM and every Amiga was delivered with Workbench on disk, so there is no piracy involved if he has an extra copy of a command or library on another floppy. If someone wants to challenge this in court, go ahead.
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24 February 2024, 22:50 | #51 | |
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It does not open the diskfont.library anymore regardless of the requested font but only, if the font is different than Topaz. The "fontlib" can be used with Blitz2 as well, just replace it there. Last edited by Honitos; 24 February 2024 at 22:55. |
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24 February 2024, 23:44 | #52 | ||
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There's clearly plenty of need, or want, for bootable software and, in the end, as it is a possibility, this is up to the author to decide whether or not it should be, and should not be subject to a ridiculous license fee from a parasitic company trying to cash on the distribution of a file that the recipient already has a license for (!??!?!) Also a PC is not an Amiga and comparing the two is just ridiculous, there was never "bootable" PC software besides the OS, as that's just not how that system worked. It's pretty wild, not to see a shameful cash-grab from a parasite, but seeing a developer defend such activities with some ridiculous postures. Talk about assisting the evil that oppresses you. |
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25 February 2024, 07:28 | #53 | |||
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After all, that "company" (as little as I like them) has paid money for their "product" in one way or another. Quote:
That is not a matter of "evil" or not. After all, somebody has to pay your lunch, too, and where is that money coming from? Even better, there are two companies - if Cloanto doesn't want to license, what about asking Hyperion? |
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25 February 2024, 13:23 | #54 | |
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e.g.: https://archive.org/details/Conflict...ge/n7/mode/2up |
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25 February 2024, 14:07 | #55 |
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In my own Blitz programs I have noticed that they won't work without the "diskfont" and "mathtrans" libraries. I use the classic Blitz Basic 2, not AmiBlitz.
It's good to hear that one can get rid of diskfont at least, but is it possible to remove the mathtrans library requirement also? Which Blitz commands use it ? |
25 February 2024, 16:16 | #56 |
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The OS's mathtrans.library is used mainly by BlitzBasic's mathtranslib that contains functions like Sin(), Cos(), Sqr(), Exp(), Log() and so on.
Some other blitzlibs make use of it too, as e.g. the ptplaylib. So if you want get rid of mathtranslib, you have to search for reimplementations of these functions that you use in your code. BTW, with AmiBlitz3 you can use the "Library Browser" to see all functions or commands that belong to each blitzlib: Last edited by Honitos; 25 February 2024 at 22:23. |
26 February 2024, 15:53 | #57 |
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Ok, thanks for the info.
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06 March 2024, 19:30 | #58 | |
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You're dismissing the interest both from a userbase and from developers in targeting stock oldschool hardware, pretending that "everyone" uses a platform like what you described which is absolutely untrue. Also WHDload also brings in many issues, I get tired of trying to play a game that keeps bombing with some imposible to diagnose error back to Workbench, slowdowns not present in the original versions and more. Yes it is "convenient" in the same way that Netflix is "convenient", offering a ridiculously large library of titles at your fingertips that you're never going to fully enjoy, but I rather not have any of that and play a game as it was intended. A chore needs to be conveniently dealt with, not an entertainig activity like a retro computer hobby. Many, many of us will keep working on and for these setups which many times only count with a floppy drive and limited memory, perpetuating the need of "useless" self-bootable software, no matter what you or anyone says. What's useless is gatekeeping people from an experience they want to have just because "it's 2024" or any other non-sensical explanation in a niche field driven mostly by people stuck a bit in the past somewhat. If you want modernity, get a modern computer, man. |
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06 March 2024, 21:09 | #59 | |
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07 March 2024, 07:05 | #60 |
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