Any reason to use assembly on the Amiga rather than C? - Page 3

Karlos · 27 June 2023, 22:11

I don't get why this is an either/or type issue. I mix C, C++ and assembler all the time for older CPU platforms like 68K and in the rare cases where the mood strikes, PPC. I tend not to do that for anything remotely modern where I can just use intrinsics if I want to do some special stuff with vectors.

malko · 27 June 2023, 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thorham

[...] Don't fall for that silly coders vs software engineers elitist crap. Coder is just slang for programmer, and programmer is just the simple word for software engineer.

BitD there was a difference between a System Engineer (Unix/Linux) and a System Administrator (Windows). The first being better considered over the second.
A Software Engineer was different than a Coder. The first was designing the application while the second was realising it. Now people do not make the difference and they are used as synonymous.

gimbal · 27 June 2023, 23:12

That would be a software architect in my neck of the woods. A dying breed just like software testers, nowadays developers need to wear all hats at the same time to be competitive.

TCD · 28 June 2023, 08:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by gimbal

No but neither do walls of text. As soon as you have to create posts with 20 quotes in them you're just wasting screen real-estate for everyone else.

If it can't be said short and sweet, you're probably overthinking it.

You know sometimes it feels more like some sort of length contest. I'm sure that entirely unintentional of course.

meynaf · 28 June 2023, 08:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thorham

Don't fall for that silly coders vs software engineers elitist crap. Coder is just slang for programmer, and programmer is just the simple word for software engineer.

I tend to differentiate programming for the fun (as a hobby) and programming for a living (as a day job). I've done both and the two worlds are very different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT

Having said that, a programmer that has used ASM for so long, likely has a library of routines that use sane equates and parameters so that writing a tool or utility in ASM need not be a headache and can be just as quick a process as writing in C.

Exactly !
Actually, with a good enough set of tools, even quicker than in C.

Quote:

Originally Posted by malko

As not every developer is necessarily capable of writing optimal C. And no compiler will ever correct lousy code into an extremely well optimised executable (nor will any asm assembler).

This is something often forgotten. A compiler isn't a magical tool that will convert bad code into good code.

Quote:

Originally Posted by malko

At the end, asm & C are languages. And languages can be learned, like French, German, Italian, Russian, Chinese, English, etc.
Some may say that 68k asm is complicated as Chinese and that, therefore, it is better to learn or use C (English). Those people forget that Chinese, as 1st languages, is spoken by 927 million people. Only 379 million speak English as 1st language.
Given that about 3 times more people speak Chinese over English, we can easily say that Chinese is not such a difficult language

.

I'd see 68k asm rather like French. Non-natives may see it as overly complicated, but for me it is nicer and more precise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TCD

You know sometimes it feels more like some sort of length contest. I'm sure that entirely unintentional of course.

This is how internet works. Some guy writes something wrong and you *must* reply.

TCD · 28 June 2023, 08:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by meynaf

This is how internet works. Some guy writes something wrong and you *must* reply.

grond · 28 June 2023, 09:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by malko

BitD there was a difference between a System Engineer (Unix/Linux) and a System Administrator (Windows). The first being better considered over the second.
A Software Engineer was different than a Coder. The first was designing the application while the second was realising it. Now people do not make the difference and they are used as synonymous.

If you ask me, things started to go downhill when they started to call software people "engineers". Back in the good old days engineers did manly things like hardware.

grond · 28 June 2023, 09:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by TCD

You know sometimes it feels more like some sort of length contest. I'm sure that entirely unintentional of course.

I wonder whether they have that amount of commentation per line of code they write.

Locutus · 28 June 2023, 09:39

I have to giggle about this talk about comments, on my teams i generally don't approve of any code pushed with comments in it (not docstrings) unless we have a discussion about it really being needed.

If you need comments to describe what your doing, >80% of the time your code is not expressive enough to be readable in any case.

ross · 28 June 2023, 09:49

"Code is like humor.
When you have to explain it, it's bad."

jotd · 28 June 2023, 10:02

one thing that asm is missing is parameter/calling conventions and register preserving.

The reason why you can't reuse other people routines as-is without checking the interfaces.

If you're self-consistent, you can reuse your own routines / other people routines that you tailored to your style once.

meynaf · 28 June 2023, 10:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by grond

I wonder whether they have that amount of commentation per line of code they write.

I do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locutus

If you need comments to describe what your doing, >80% of the time your code is not expressive enough to be readable in any case.

"Easy to read" code is often naive, inefficient code.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ross

"Code is like humor.
When you have to explain it, it's bad."

This forbids nonobvious coding tricks. What a sad world.

Thomas Richter · 28 June 2023, 10:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thorham

What a load of elitist nonsense. Also, you seem to think you're the only professional developer around here (if I'm wrong I didn't say anything) which is obviously not true.

No, I'm just thinking that someone who believes that assembly is a practical language to develop in is not. Software is not about writing code. That's just a minor part of the deal. Software is about designing a maintainable architecture that fits the needs of the customer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thorham

And remember, 68k asm programming is a hobby and is used for smaller projects, and not for one million lines of code sized projects. Perfectly valid.

Then the reason is hardly "because it is practical", but "I want to toy around". That's fine enough, but you don't create a lot of useful programs this way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thorham

Don't fall for that silly coders vs software engineers elitist crap. Coder is just slang for programmer, and programmer is just the simple word for software engineer.

No, that is definitely not the same. A coder writes code. That's it. But, as said, software is not about code.

meynaf · 28 June 2023, 10:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

No, I'm just thinking that someone who believes that assembly is a practical language to develop in is not. Software is not about writing code. That's just a minor part of the deal. Software is about designing a maintainable architecture that fits the needs of the customer.

No it is not a minor part of the deal. If you believe it is minor then you will neglect it, and we all know what happens in programs when something is overlooked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

Then the reason is hardly "because it is practical", but "I want to toy around". That's fine enough, but you don't create a lot of useful programs this way.

No programming language is really practical. They all have their issues.
And useful programs don't need to be huge. Big things are (or should be) more the exception than the rule - if, of course, you don't write 10,000 lines where 100 are enough.

Perhaps the problem comes from the fact you see programming as a job, not as an art.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

No, that is definitely not the same. A coder writes code. That's it. But, as said, software is not about code.

This is like saying it's not the built house that counts but the plans of it on the paper. I don't think the inhabitant will agree.
If software wasn't about code, used language would be totally unimportant.

jotd · 28 June 2023, 11:28

I'm glad you finally agreed on almost everything.

TCD · 28 June 2023, 11:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by jotd

I'm glad you finally agreed on almost everything.

meynaf · 28 June 2023, 11:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by jotd

I'm glad you finally agreed on almost everything.

It is sure very nice. Now let's solve that small 'almost'.

ross · 28 June 2023, 11:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by meynaf

Now let's solve that small 'almost'.

mmh, better call a software engineer or a coder to solve the algorithm?

meynaf · 28 June 2023, 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by ross

mmh, better call a software engineer or a coder to solve the algorithm?

Ask ChatGPT.

ross · 28 June 2023, 12:03

ChatGPT: "Both are fine, as long as the code is well commented."

Damn, it/he/she acted like Pontius Pilate!

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27 June 2023, 22:11	#41
Karlos Alien Bleed Join Date: Aug 2022 Location: UK Posts: 4,542	I don't get why this is an either/or type issue. I mix C, C++ and assembler all the time for older CPU platforms like 68K and in the rare cases where the mood strikes, PPC. I tend not to do that for anything remotely modern where I can just use intrinsics if I want to do some special stuff with vectors.

27 June 2023, 23:12	#43
gimbal cheeky scoundrel Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Spijkenisse/Netherlands Age: 43 Posts: 6,991	That would be a software architect in my neck of the woods. A dying breed just like software testers, nowadays developers need to wear all hats at the same time to be competitive.

28 June 2023, 09:39	#49
Locutus Registered User Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Finland Posts: 1,187	I have to giggle about this talk about comments, on my teams i generally don't approve of any code pushed with comments in it (not docstrings) unless we have a discussion about it really being needed. If you need comments to describe what your doing, >80% of the time your code is not expressive enough to be readable in any case.

28 June 2023, 09:49	#50
ross Defendit numerus Join Date: Mar 2017 Location: Crossing the Rubicon Age: 54 Posts: 4,498	"Code is like humor. When you have to explain it, it's bad."

28 June 2023, 10:02	#51
jotd This cat is no more Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: FRANCE Age: 52 Posts: 8,386	one thing that asm is missing is parameter/calling conventions and register preserving. The reason why you can't reuse other people routines as-is without checking the interfaces. If you're self-consistent, you can reuse your own routines / other people routines that you tailored to your style once.

28 June 2023, 11:28	#55
jotd This cat is no more Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: FRANCE Age: 52 Posts: 8,386	I'm glad you finally agreed on almost everything.

28 June 2023, 12:03	#60
ross Defendit numerus Join Date: Mar 2017 Location: Crossing the Rubicon Age: 54 Posts: 4,498	ChatGPT: "Both are fine, as long as the code is well commented." Damn, it/he/she acted like Pontius Pilate!

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