Dungeon Master Custom Dungeons

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by meynaf

The video goes too fast even with boots of speed so it does not look as authentic as should be.

Yeah, I didn't really check it properly Seems at regular speeds it's more in the half hour range.

[RogerS]

Do rabbit's feet also work inside chests in our version like they do in the Atari ST version, or do they only work in the main inventory?

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by RogerS

Do rabbit's feet also work inside chests in our version like they do in the Atari ST version, or do they only work in the main inventory?

Rabbit's foot working in chests was a bug that got fixed in version 2.0, even on the Atari.

[RogerS]

In your opinion, does the luck statistic make enough of a difference that it's worth sacrificing inventory slots for rabbit's feet?

I vaguely remember reading somewhere that the luck statistic gets increased with every failed luck roll and decreased with every successful luck roll. If so, wouldn't it eventually even out after a while no matter your champion's starting luck or how many rabbit's feet you're carrying or cursed items you're wearing?

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by RogerS

In your opinion, does the luck statistic make enough of a difference that it's worth sacrificing inventory slots for rabbit's feet?

If you mean for combat, then absolutely not. Stat boost potions are way better because they stack up to 170 per stat. With high wisdom characters you can permanently maintain fully boosted strength, for example.

[RogerS]

Yes, I make use of stat boosting potions in every run, prioritizing wisdom, strength, dexterity (and once I've got plenty of spare mana also vitality but never above twice its base value) in that order.

If your combined wisdom + priest level + wizard level is greater than or equal to 112, you get maximum mana generation. I boost wisdom until it's above 120 and top it up once it has fallen below 120 again.

meynaf, you're very familiar with the source code. What's your take on the luck statistic?

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by RogerS

meynaf, you're very familiar with the source code. What's your take on the luck statistic?

If it were just me, there wouldn't be any luck stat at all.
Rabbit's foot has too little effect to really count, but very high luck would make a better fighter than very high strength or even dexterity...

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by meynaf

let's collect ideas

Make missile weapons more useful by allowing them stack. Right now you can only really use four at a time, making them less than great. Don't reduce their weight, though.

Might be harder to do, but auto-pickup for used missiles would be nice. When a character uses a missile weapon from inventory, the missile gets picked up automatically when the party walks onto the space the missile landed on.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Thorham

Make missile weapons more useful by allowing them stack. Right now you can only really use four at a time, making them less than great. Don't reduce their weight, though.

Is your idea about stacking different objects on same inventory cell ?
What do you mean, four at a time ?

Originally Posted by Thorham

Might be harder to do, but auto-pickup for used missiles would be nice. When a character uses a missile weapon from inventory, the missile gets picked up automatically when the party walks onto the space the missile landed on.

This means storing information for which there is no space currently, making saved games incompatible.
When the party comes on a cell, that cell needs to be scanned (potentially taking some time). And then what to do ? Not instantly grab objects, it's irrealistic.

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by meynaf

Is your idea about stacking different objects on same inventory cell ?

Yes, but only for items that can be used from the quiver part of the inventory (where using them places another item in hand from this place automatically).

Originally Posted by meynaf

What do you mean, four at a time ?

You have four inventory spaces for throwing things like darts and rocks, and it's not enough to make good use of bows and slings. Four shots and you're done. Real quivers generally hold more than three arrows (plus one in hand).

Originally Posted by meynaf

This means storing information for which there is no space currently, making saved games incompatible.

It doesn't need to be stored in a save file (the player already has to remember to pick up those items anyway).

Originally Posted by meynaf

When the party comes on a cell, that cell needs to be scanned (potentially taking some time).

That's true, probably more trouble than it's worth to make it fast.

Originally Posted by meynaf

And then what to do ? Not instantly grab objects, it's irrealistic.

That's the idea. Basically the characters would be doing things by themselves. The Legend of Grimrock games do that.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Thorham

Yes, but only for items that can be used from the quiver part of the inventory (where using them places another item in hand from this place automatically).

There is no "quiver" part of the inventory. Area from which items are gotten from, is the belt - in which the space is of course more limited than in a quiver.

Originally Posted by Thorham

You have four inventory spaces for throwing things like darts and rocks, and it's not enough to make good use of bows and slings. Four shots and you're done. Real quivers generally hold more than three arrows (plus one in hand).

It's 5 shots, not 4. You forgot the object already in hand.
DM2 has real quiver that can hold 8 (IIRC). Retrofitting to DM1 is in theory possible, but it's too late for existing dungeons.

Originally Posted by Thorham

It doesn't need to be stored in a save file (the player already has to remember to pick up those items anyway).

It may feel real strange that the game doesn't behave the same when going straight vs restoring a saved game...

Originally Posted by Thorham

That's true, probably more trouble than it's worth to make it fast.

People walking inside huge deposits may think otherwise.
Not sure of the exact effect it would have, though, hence my 'potentially'.

Originally Posted by Thorham

That's the idea. Basically the characters would be doing things by themselves. The Legend of Grimrock games do that.

Doing things by themselves is something, doing irrealistic things is something else. Grabbing objects on the floor should take time.

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by meynaf

There is no "quiver" part of the inventory. Area from which items are gotten from, is the belt - in which the space is of course more limited than in a quiver.

The icon looks like a quiver, but you're right, it's the belt. Would be nice to repurpose the quiver icon (which hangs on the belt) as an actual quiver.

Originally Posted by meynaf

It's 5 shots, not 4. You forgot the object already in hand.

Indeed

Originally Posted by meynaf

DM2 has real quiver that can hold 8 (IIRC). Retrofitting to DM1 is in theory possible, but it's too late for existing dungeons.

That's why repurposing the 'quiver hanging on the belt icon' part of the inventory could be used for that in combination with item stacks. That way you don't need to add a new item that players won't be able to get in existing games. Although by that time it may be too late because players will have left many arrows lying around due to lack of space.

Originally Posted by meynaf

It may feel real strange that the game doesn't behave the same when going straight vs restoring a saved game...

True.

Originally Posted by meynaf

People walking inside huge deposits may think otherwise.

Exactly. That's one reason why auto pickup would be nice.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Not sure of the exact effect it would have, though, hence my 'potentially'.

It would probably be fine, because you have to go through the entire item pile to draw the floor graphics any way.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Doing things by themselves is something, doing irrealistic things is something else. Grabbing objects on the floor should take time.

Perhaps, but some quality of life features are nice to have, like your auto map addition, after all, mapping should take time

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Thorham

That's why repurposing the 'quiver hanging on the belt icon' part of the inventory could be used for that in combination with item stacks. That way you don't need to add a new item that players won't be able to get in existing games. Although by that time it may be too late because players will have left many arrows lying around due to lack of space.

But then this closes the door to adding a real quiver, to do it like DM2.
Furthermore, that's not very DM-like. We need to add small numbers to indicate how many objets are in the stack. There would be no way to specify you want to move around a single object and not the whole stack, or vice versa. And what would happen if we want to throw the stack at once ?

Originally Posted by Thorham

Exactly. That's one reason why auto pickup would be nice.

That wasn't my point. It was that auto pickup could slow down the game when walking among many objects on floor.

Originally Posted by Thorham

It would probably be fine, because you have to go through the entire item pile to draw the floor graphics any way.

Indeed.
Another possibility is to scan the pile of objects only when the player explicity asks to. The GUI does not have anything for this option, but a keyboard shortcut could.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Perhaps, but some quality of life features are nice to have, like your auto map addition, after all, mapping should take time

That's possible. But as i mentioned, say goodbye to all your saved games.

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by meynaf

But then this closes the door to adding a real quiver, to do it like DM2.

A quiver item would be preferred, so that's not ideal, no. Perhaps it's a bit of a problematic feature. Even when starting a new game, where would the quiver come from in existing dungeons? Also, is there enough ammo in a dungeon to make it worthwhile? I'd almost suggest just getting rid of ammo for launcher type weapons completely. I feel as if they just made it that way for realism, but at the same time it cause these weapons to become less useful.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Furthermore, that's not very DM-like. We need to add small numbers to indicate how many objets are in the stack.

If it's easy to render a number over the icon then it's not a problem.

Originally Posted by meynaf

There would be no way to specify you want to move around a single object and not the whole stack, or vice versa.

Shift click the stack.

Originally Posted by meynaf

And what would happen if we want to throw the stack at once ?

The stack is a single item with a quantity. Just like a chest is one item that activates a container.

Originally Posted by meynaf

That wasn't my point. It was that auto pickup could slow down the game when walking among many objects on floor.

You have to go through the whole pile anyway.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Another possibility is to scan the pile of objects only when the player explicity asks to.

That's more in line with your realism suggestion also.

Originally Posted by meynaf

The GUI does not have anything for this option, but a keyboard shortcut could.

Shift click a hand icon.

Originally Posted by meynaf

That's possible. But as i mentioned, say goodbye to all your saved games.

You'd have to start over to benefit from the feature anyway. Might not be an issue, but not ideal nonetheless.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Thorham

A quiver item would be preferred, so that's not ideal, no. Perhaps it's a bit of a problematic feature. Even when starting a new game, where would the quiver come from in existing dungeons? Also, is there enough ammo in a dungeon to make it worthwhile? I'd almost suggest just getting rid of ammo for launcher type weapons completely. I feel as if they just made it that way for realism, but at the same time it cause these weapons to become less useful.

Well, i just don't want to become incompatible with DM2, should i add DM2 support one day (some of the features are already there).

Originally Posted by Thorham

If it's easy to render a number over the icon then it's not a problem.

I'm afraid it would need new routine, as DM's font rendering probably doesn't support transparency (i don't remember).

Originally Posted by Thorham

Shift click the stack.

That's an idea.

Originally Posted by Thorham

The stack is a single item with a quantity. Just like a chest is one item that activates a container.

But it is logic that throwing a chest includes its contents. But throwing a pack of arrows ?

Originally Posted by Thorham

You have to go through the whole pile anyway.

Right but it can't be done at the same time (i think).

Originally Posted by Thorham

That's more in line with your realism suggestion also.

Yup, especially if only one object is taken back at once. Adding a sound would be great too, to indicate items have been gotten.
Being fully DM-like would need to have an option in the bare hand menu but there is no space for it and it would probably be 'too slow'.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Shift click a hand icon.

That would be for single character.

This has just made me understand where this feature request comes from. So only 5 objects can be thrown ? No way. It's 20 of them that can.
This number seems good enough.
But it's true you're soloing and DM hasn't been designed for that.

Originally Posted by Thorham

You'd have to start over to benefit from the feature anyway. Might not be an issue, but not ideal nonetheless.

Starting over isn't a necessity if no extra room is needed to store the info. It would just be that objects thrown before the feature got added, wouldn't be grabbed back.
But now we need to link a potentially vast amount of objects to a player...

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by meynaf

Well, i just don't want to become incompatible with DM2, should i add DM2 support one day (some of the features are already there).

Understandable. Having potential DM2 compatibility is more interesting anyway.

Originally Posted by meynaf

I'm afraid it would need new routine, as DM's font rendering probably doesn't support transparency (i don't remember).

The item stacks aren't important if there's a suitable launcher weapon container.

Originally Posted by meynaf

But it is logic that throwing a chest includes its contents. But throwing a pack of arrows ?

Same idea. Perhaps a stack could be a container? Then again, see above text.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Right but it can't be done at the same time (i think).

Is it buried in the rendering code or something?

Originally Posted by meynaf

Being fully DM-like would need to have an option in the bare hand menu but there is no space for it and it would probably be 'too slow'.

Yes, it would partially defeat the point.

Originally Posted by meynaf

That would be for single character.

Yes, per character. Shift clicking the hand icon per character is still much nicer than picking up the items from the floor by hand.

Originally Posted by meynaf

So only 5 objects can be thrown ? No way. It's 20 of them that can.

Not in practice. The front row characters usually use melee weapons.

Originally Posted by meynaf

This number seems good enough.

It's not for good bow use for the back row characters. They always end up using magic much more.

Originally Posted by meynaf

But it's true you're soloing and DM hasn't been designed for that.

That's really not the reason. A one or two character party usually doesn't use many ranged weapons because of how much better melee weapons are.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Starting over isn't a necessity if no extra room is needed to store the info. It would just be that objects thrown before the feature got added, wouldn't be grabbed back.

Can't be avoided, and isn't a big deal.

Originally Posted by meynaf

But now we need to link a potentially vast amount of objects to a player...

Can the item struct be expanded? Or perhaps it contains some space that can be repurposed? You only need two bits per item potentially. Or wait, don't tell me, items are not instances but references?

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Thorham

The item stacks aren't important if there's a suitable launcher weapon container.

A container needs to be an object... like a quiver.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Is it buried in the rendering code or something?

I don't remember, it's been some time i haven't put my hands in that code. I'm not currently on DM at all, but completely in my system frame -- that said, DmCsb might benefit of new features there as i finally got that damned wb startup code (don't expect anything soon though, it's under complete rework).

Originally Posted by Thorham

Yes, per character. Shift clicking the hand icon per character is still much nicer than picking up the items from the floor by hand.

Right, but in comparison to a single keypress doing that for all 4 characters ?

Originally Posted by Thorham

Not in practice. The front row characters usually use melee weapons.

Well, ok, then 10. Still enough for me.

Originally Posted by Thorham

It's not for good bow use for the back row characters. They always end up using magic much more.

Shooting weapons seem to be for use in the early part of the game.

Originally Posted by Thorham

That's really not the reason. A one or two character party usually doesn't use many ranged weapons because of how much better melee weapons are.

Then it seems you don't actually need that feature.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Can the item struct be expanded? Or perhaps it contains some space that can be repurposed? You only need two bits per item potentially. Or wait, don't tell me, items are not instances but references?

Two bits per item ? That's not enough. What could i store in that ?
Anyway, there is no free space. Not even a single bit. Expanding it would be possible, but i'd rather put that info elsewhere.
And items in inventories are indeed references. They are links to the actual object.

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by meynaf

A container needs to be an object... like a quiver.

It's probably best to just add the quiver from DM2.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Right, but in comparison to a single keypress doing that for all 4 characters ?

That would probably be nicer still.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Well, ok, then 10. Still enough for me.

Yes, but it would create more build options.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Shooting weapons seem to be for use in the early part of the game.

A missed chance, if you ask me.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Then it seems you don't actually need that feature.

Perhaps not

Originally Posted by meynaf

Two bits per item ? That's not enough. What could i store in that ?

The champion number, because there are only four. An item can only be thrown by a single champion at a time, and you only need to store the number of the last champion to throw an item, hence two bits. Or maybe three. Two for the champion and one to indicate thrown state. Seeing how there's no room, it doesn't really matter anymore.

Originally Posted by meynaf

And items in inventories are indeed references. They are links to the actual object.

In this case that's quite logical. Saves a lot of memory potentially. You'd indeed have to store the data somewhere else.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Thorham

The champion number, because there are only four. An item can only be thrown by a single champion at a time, and you only need to store the number of the last champion to throw an item, hence two bits. Or maybe three. Two for the champion and one to indicate thrown state. Seeing how there's no room, it doesn't really matter anymore.

Two bits wouldn't be enough : all non-relevant objects on floor would then be grabbed by the first character. Three is the minimum, but as said there is no space for that.

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by meynaf

Two bits wouldn't be enough : all non-relevant objects on floor would then be grabbed by the first character. Three is the minimum, but as said there is no space for that.

Another problem is when you throw a missile weapon onto a pressure plate. What to do now? When this happens in combat you want to pick up the items, but not otherwise.