Inviyya - OCS Shoot Em Up

[DanScott]

Originally Posted by Predseda

I do not agree. I like the difficulty and who is not able to pass, is a lamer

As I said, my post was my personal opinion... however I do have a lot of experience with retention on games (especially now, as our mobile apps undergo months of analytical gathering in a restricted launch, before final full worldwide release)

When a game is too hard at the start, then many players will give up fairly quickly and not return. Just because you are a PRO at playing these types of games, does not mean that the next 10 people are... and you have to cater for everyone after all

If you take (for example) R-Type, the first level was fairly easy... the second one a bit harder, the third level was much more difficult, and then level 4 onwards were hardcore! It's a very good example of a game that has a good difficulty curve.

[Tigerskunk]

@TJLazer: Could you please try out without the external drive? (this game literally uses every last kilobyte of chip ram)

@Dan Scott: I am with you on the initial difficulty. The first demo was a good bit too easy, and I wanted to have the other extreme with this demo, to find a middle ground.
In the final game, the beginning of the game will be much easier.

On your other points, that's some good feedback.

I will have a look into that.

[earok]

Shamefully I never got a chance to play V1, so I definitely needed to give V2 a shot. My thoughts:

In general - really, really good, and I'm looking forward to how it turns out.

So far as specific feedback goes, these are my thoughts:

1. The ship bobbing is a little frustrating. I didn't notice at first until Dan Scott pointed it out, but yeah a smoother "swimming" motion may be better than sudden bobs.
2. I feel that, unless the game has a charge-shot (and that might be a cool addition to have), the game should be autofire or at least have the option for that.
3. The first of the dual helix shots seems weak in comparison to the double regular shots before it (I notice that it seems to take less time to kill a big robot with the double shots than one level upgraded to the dual helix shot)
4. This may be a general issue with Shoot-Em-Ups, but the penalty for losing power ups when killed feels a little harsh. I found that, if I died in the first half of the level, I'd deliberately waste the rest of my lives and start over.
5. Needing to destroy the big gate lazer does feel a little unfair when you're caught with a low end weapon - it feels like you're trapped in a no-win scenario for a few seconds as you helplessly run into it (this is part of the reason I tended to throw away the rest of my lives if I die near the start).
6. I found I was able to breeze through the level when using a keyboard on WinUAE, but struggled a fair bit when I was using my arcade stick (which would be similar to what I'd use on a real Amiga, I did get there in the end though). Which is to say - when considering difficulty feedback, it'd be worth taking the input devices and setups of the playtesters into account.
7. Overall, I though the level was a littletoo hard, but not over the top by any means and somewhat expected because of the genre.

[Tigerskunk]

First off, thanks for testing this...

Originally Posted by earok

Shamefully I never got a chance to play V1, so I definitely needed to give V2 a shot. My thoughts:

In general - really, really good, and I'm looking forward to how it turns out.

So far as specific feedback goes, these are my thoughts:

1. The ship bobbing is a little frustrating. I didn't notice at first until Dan Scott pointed it out, but yeah a smoother "swimming" motion may be better than sudden bobs.
   

1. Will look into that..
   

   Originally Posted by earok

   I feel that, unless the game has a charge-shot (and that might be a cool addition to have), the game should be autofire or at least have the option for that.

   We had the same debate but the other way around (you can read that in this thread) where people said it makes the game too easy.
   

   Originally Posted by earok

   The first of the dual helix shots seems weak in comparison to the double regular shots before it (I notice that it seems to take less time to kill a big robot with the double shots than one level upgraded to the dual helix shot)

   That's repaired now.
   

   Originally Posted by earok

   This may be a general issue with Shoot-Em-Ups, but the penalty for losing power ups when killed feels a little harsh. I found that, if I died in the first half of the level, I'd deliberately waste the rest of my lives and start over.

   Yep, this needs a bit more of a sensible distribution of power ups. There will be one when you die at the end boss, and I guess I will add one in front of the big cannon as well.
   I think even with the double shot (first power up), you can manage all these enemies quite well.
   With the initial shot, it's very very difficult (but possible) though.
   

   Originally Posted by earok

   Needing to destroy the big gate lazer does feel a little unfair when you're caught with a low end weapon - it feels like you're trapped in a no-win scenario for a few seconds as you helplessly run into it (this is part of the reason I tended to throw away the rest of my lives if I die near the start).

   see above
   

   Originally Posted by earok

   I found I was able to breeze through the level when using a keyboard on WinUAE, but struggled a fair bit when I was using my arcade stick (which would be similar to what I'd use on a real Amiga, I did get there in the end though). Which is to say - when considering difficulty feedback, it'd be worth taking the input devices and setups of the playtesters into account.

   That's a bit hard to test for me, though..
   In the end it boils down to making parts of it easier, doesn't it?
   

   Originally Posted by earok

   Overall, I though the level was a littletoo hard, but not over the top by any means and somewhat expected because of the genre.

I will make it a good bit easier though again. Especially at the start.
This whole testing thing gave me a good idea about it.

Was really worth it.

[roondar]

On the topic of auto-fire, you could opt for a middle ground where the built-in auto fire is not quite as effective as furious button mashing. But then, that would please no one

That said, the whole discussion has always been divisive. I've personally always seen auto fire as a "should be standard" feature (if only for people who have trouble/pain pushing buttons that rapidly for extended periods). But, if auto fire is standard the game should balance its difficulty around it.

But like I said, it's divisive. Other people disagree... All part of the fun of game design I guess

[Tigerskunk]

Originally Posted by roondar

On the topic of auto-fire, you could opt for a middle ground where the built-in auto fire is not quite as effective as furious button mashing. But then, that would please no one

That said, the whole discussion has always been divisive. I've personally always seen auto fire as a "should be standard" feature (if only for people who have trouble/pain pushing buttons that rapidly for extended periods). But, if auto fire is standard the game should balance its difficulty around it.

But like I said, it's divisive. Other people disagree... All part of the fun of game design I guess

And then you mix in those people who have autofire joysticks, and it gets really complicated..

[DamienD]

Originally Posted by Steril707

And then you mix in those people who have autofire joysticks, and it gets really complicated..

....or just set it via WinUAE (or other emulators)

[earok]

I gave Autofire some more thought. My two cents:

CONS:

• I think retro gamers don't generally expect it and may just tap rather than hold out of instinct
• The era of shooter that the game is based on usually didn't (AFAIK)
• You could use a "hold fire" mechanic for a charge shot, or to trigger a smart bomb, or a shield, or whatever else. Once you implement autofire, you can no longer do that.

PROS:

• It can be physically painful not to have it (ask AmigaBill .
• Gamers with autofire sticks get an automatic advantage (though this can be mitigated by having a charge-up attack).
• Difficulty isn't that relevant. If autofire makes the game too easy, add more enemies and make it grander and more "epic" so the difficulty is similar to what it was before.

[Predseda]

Originally Posted by earok

• Gamers with autofire sticks get an automatic advantage (though this can be mitigated by having a charge-up attack).

[nikosidis]

I think Steril707 did well regarding how to fire. It is not like in games where you have to push very fast to get out enough bullets. To me this is more fun and as other mention there could be something happen holding the button. Could be triggering a smart bomb, rocket after pickup, some kind of shield or loading a powershot like in R-Type. Advantage or not using joystick with autofire, that is a cheat. That is at least always how I felt.

[Master484]

I just tried the V2 demo. Good to see a new high quality 50 FPS shooter for Amiga, there aren't so many of those.

And I didn't try the first V1 demo, so this was my first time playing the game.

About the difficulty, I managed to finish the stage on my fifth try. So I got 4 game overs, but after that it was quite easy to get to the end.

But even after learning the stage there is still challenge: you have to concentrate all the time, otherwise you'll get hit. But I guess that's the whole point of a shmup.

The end of level boss was challenging with the starting weapon. First I didn't know the strategy and tried to stay at the center of the screen, where you'll almost certainly die. But on the second try I stayed at the left side of the screen, and just kept on shooting blindly, while concentrating on dodging the bosses lasers. And this way I managed to beat it.

However with the full power-ups the boss was very easy; the most powerful weapon destroyed it in a few seconds.

Also the big robots and the cannon are tough to destroy with the starting weapon, but on the other hand with the power ups they become maybe too easy.

Power-up systems that increase the damage of player's shots can be hard to balance. I think the best solution is to design the levels assuming that the player has at least some power ups, and then make sure that there are lot of power up pick-ups, especially near the restart points.

---

Also about autofire and stuff...I noticed that the maximum amount of player shots on screen seems to be 2, and that there is a delay between them; after shooting the first bullet a certain amount of time has to pass before you can shoot the second bullet.

And this I found out to be slightly annoying. For example when you're close to one of those big robots and try to shoot as fast as possible, the delay between the shots makes this hard to do.

When firing at enemies from a long distance, the delay between the shots doesn't matter so much. But when you're close to a big enemy that takes many hits to kill, then I would like to be able to fire at a faster pace by hitting the button as fast as I can, to destroy it quicker. This would make those tricky situations like destroying the big cannon with the starting weapon a little bit easier.

I can press the fire button about 5 or 6 times per second, and would like to get a shot with every button press. I know that the delay is there probably to counter autofire users, but I think it's too long.

Right now the delay between shots seems to be about 12 frames. So maybe it should be set to something like 8 or 6 frames.

This would still limit the effects of autofire, because the maximum fire rate that they would get would be about the same that someone could get with fast button bashing. And of course there would still be that "2 shots on screen at a time" player bullet limit, so autofire users still couldn't fill the screen with bullets.

---

Also I noticed two bugs; the first one is that some tiles sometimes turn into a graphics mess like this:



Those messy tiles appeared one by one when an enemy moved over them. So I guess this somehow happens during the "bitmap restore after blits" process. And also sometimes, when a bullet or something else moves over those messy tiles for the second time, they sometimes return to normal.

And the second bug that I noticed was that sometimes when an enemy was destroyed, some other enemies also exploded at the same time.

And I found a quite reliable way to replicate this bug; if you look at that screenshot, there is that red power-up. Wait until the power-up is about at the middle of the screen, and then kill yourself while shooting, so that some of your bullets are active when you die.

And after this, when you're restored, a wave of 4 enemies appear. Shoot any of the upper 3 ones, and often the lowest enemy will also explode. And that enemy is the first one that appears on the screen after the restart. And sometimes I think this happens before the laser even hits anything.

---

But overall, the game looks great, and technically it's on par with the best Amiga shmups. Very impressive work, especially considering that it's your first Amiga game, and you made all of it 100% by yourself, graphics and musics included.

[Tigerskunk]

Hey Master484, first off thanks for the detailed feedback..

Originally Posted by Master484

About the difficulty, I managed to finish the stage on my fifth try. So I got 4 game overs, but after that it was quite easy to get to the end.

Sounds reasonable.
I will make the game a bit more easy though, especially at the start of the level.

Originally Posted by Master484

But even after learning the stage there is still challenge: you have to concentrate all the time, otherwise you'll get hit. But I guess that's the whole point of a shmup.

Yeah...

Originally Posted by Master484

The end of level boss was challenging with the starting weapon. First I didn't know the strategy and tried to stay at the center of the screen, where you'll almost certainly die. But on the second try I stayed at the left side of the screen, and just kept on shooting blindly, while concentrating on dodging the bosses lasers. And this way I managed to beat it.

Originally Posted by Master484

However with the full power-ups the boss was very easy; the most powerful weapon destroyed it in a few seconds.

As it should be, imo.

Originally Posted by Master484

Also the big robots and the cannon are tough to destroy with the starting weapon, but on the other hand with the power ups they become maybe too easy.

There is already power up at the start, so you will have at least the double shot.
And with that it's very doable.

Originally Posted by Master484

Power-up systems that increase the damage of player's shots can be hard to balance. I think the best solution is to design the levels assuming that the player has at least some power ups, and then make sure that there are lot of power up pick-ups, especially near the restart points.

That's what I try..

Originally Posted by Master484

Also about autofire and stuff...I noticed that the maximum amount of player shots on screen seems to be 2, and that there is a delay between them; after shooting the first bullet a certain amount of time has to pass before you can shoot the second bullet.

And this I found out to be slightly annoying. For example when you're close to one of those big robots and try to shoot as fast as possible, the delay between the shots makes this hard to do.

When firing at enemies from a long distance, the delay between the shots doesn't matter so much. But when you're close to a big enemy that takes many hits to kill, then I would like to be able to fire at a faster pace by hitting the button as fast as I can, to destroy it quicker. This would make those tricky situations like destroying the big cannon with the starting weapon a little bit easier.

I can press the fire button about 5 or 6 times per second, and would like to get a shot with every button press. I know that the delay is there probably to counter autofire users, but I think it's too long.

Right now the delay between shots seems to be about 12 frames. So maybe it should be set to something like 8 or 6 frames.

This would still limit the effects of autofire, because the maximum fire rate that they would get would be about the same that someone could get with fast button bashing. And of course there would still be that "2 shots on screen at a time" player bullet limit, so autofire users still couldn't fill the screen with bullets.

Well written, and good eye for the timing. I think it's really around 12 frames..
[ Show youtube player ]

This is the frequency with autofire activated.
Faster than this, and it would be too much.

But I guess I will go back to inbuilt autofire again, which I had in the first demo.
It just keeps things a bit more easy to balance (sorry Nikosidis )

Originally Posted by Master484

---

Also I noticed two bugs; the first one is that some tiles sometimes turn into a graphics mess like this:



Those messy tiles appeared one by one when an enemy moved over them. So I guess this somehow happens during the "bitmap restore after blits" process. And also sometimes, when a bullet or something else moves over those messy tiles for the second time, they sometimes return to normal.

Yeah, I know that one off course.
I think it's something with the blitter line look up table that gets overwritten by some rogue blit or something.
Not sure yet though.

Originally Posted by Master484

And the second bug that I noticed was that sometimes when an enemy was destroyed, some other enemies also exploded at the same time.

This one I repaired two days ago..

Originally Posted by Master484

---

But overall, the game looks great, and technically it's on par with the best Amiga shmups. Very impressive work, especially considering that it's your first Amiga game, and you made all of it 100% by yourself, graphics and musics included.

Thanks, man..

Has been a lot of work and time, but I think it starts looks really good.


On a side note, I have seen the first sketch of the box art, and it looks amazing. Dude is super talented...

[Adrian Browne]

Hell yeah. Physical version. How many copies will be manufactured? Any idea of price?

[Tigerskunk]

Will be decided by a kickstarter, probably.

[Adrian Browne]

Originally Posted by Steril707

Will be decided by a kickstarter, probably.

Cool. Message me when that's happening if I am not on the forum here. But I will keep am eye on it. We have to make sure its a success.

[earok]

Originally Posted by Steril707

Will be decided by a kickstarter, probably.

I'd really like to buy a physical CD32 version I know that you're not keen on releasing a version that loads from OS, but I hope you reconsider.

[Tigerskunk]

Originally Posted by earok

I'd really like to buy a physical CD32 version I know that you're not keen on releasing a version that loads from OS, but I hope you reconsider.

I think you need to ask Ross about this...
But I guess it's simply not possible anymore from now on.

[ross]

Let's see what can be done, but I think it's possible

[earok]

Originally Posted by Steril707

I think you need to ask Ross about this...
But I guess it's simply not possible anymore from now on.

Hmmmm..

You do have 2MB of chipram to play with on CD32. If you can throw the entire game into a single executable, then you don't need to worry about loading again

Seriously though, I'm behind you either way if it comes down to needing to buy the game, then WHDLoad install it to CD or HD, I'll do that.

[ross]

Originally Posted by earok

You do have 2MB of chipram to play with on CD32. If you can throw the entire game into a single executable, then you don't need to worry about loading again

This