Dungeon Master Custom Dungeons

[Aardvark]

Originally Posted by meynaf

It is different, but more subtle than Amiga version which IIRC just mutes sounds.
Perhaps you can try more distant sounds.

Alright, after analyzing the audio in Audacity, I can see slight difference between L/R channels, but it's too subtle to be functional. I can't tell which side a mummy is attacking me just by audio alone, that is not an problem in Amiga version.

This is with using headphones with 100% stereo separation in UAE.

[RogerS]

Originally Posted by meynaf

I suppose, but i'm afraid this would imbalance the game and make some dungeons just too easy.

Actually it turns out there's a bug in the Amiga version that persists until the very first time you're attacked by a creature, at which point it starts behaving like the Atari ST version.


https://www.dungeon-master.com/forum...163835#p163835

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by RogerS

It means future runs through DM and CSB would be a bit more tedious/challenging if I'm to use your version. Especially since I can't use war cry to gain the initial priest levels, something that makes certain champions almost unviable.

Dungeon Master gives you the Teo Wand (six mana) on level three, and Chaos Strikes back gives you a Yew Staff (four mana) when you choose the wizard way. I used to not like this change either, but in practice it doesn't matter at all.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Aardvark

Alright, after analyzing the audio in Audacity, I can see slight difference between L/R channels, but it's too subtle to be functional. I can't tell which side a mummy is attacking me just by audio alone, that is not an problem in Amiga version.

This is with using headphones with 100% stereo separation in UAE.

Test i've made says : two cells to the right gives volumes 33/44. Probably insufficient difference indeed, or maybe not in that case. I think my version gives greater channels difference as distance increases (it was long ago, i don't remember). Perhaps not the right thing to do either, i don't know.
But Amiga version sounded... wrong, to me. Code isn't nice either IIRC.
Maybe we need some kind of more standard algorithm for this, should one exist.

Originally Posted by RogerS

Actually it turns out there's a bug in the Amiga version that persists until the very first time you're attacked by a creature, at which point it starts behaving like the Atari ST version.

I'm glad i didn't attempt to "fix" that.

By the way, poison spell bug was already fixed in my version. I killed the dragon in Kid's dungeon with that spell, just to be sure.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Dungeon Master gives you the Teo Wand (six mana) on level three, and Chaos Strikes back gives you a Yew Staff (four mana) when you choose the wizard way. I used to not like this change either, but in practice it doesn't matter at all.

I like the idea of learning magic by using a magical object.
Anyhow, the war cry "fighter vs priest" issue has led the devs to completely remove this option in DM2.

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by meynaf

Maybe we need some kind of more standard algorithm for this, should one exist.

You could do a 14 bit channel mixer that supports more monsters at the same time

Originally Posted by meynaf

I like the idea of learning magic by using a magical object.

Yes, I agree now. I used to complain about your change but it makes more sense this way. However, making stone giants and rock piles more resilient to punches doesn't. Ninja skills are martial arts, and people break bricks with their hands.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Anyhow, the war cry "fighter vs priest" issue has led the devs to completely remove this option in DM2.

It was probably a bug. Why would a skill give experience in two classes, especially if it's the only one?

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Thorham

You could do a 14 bit channel mixer that supports more monsters at the same time

It is possible but the more channels you add, the lower the single-channel volume you'll get. Or you'll get awful sound saturation.
For now we have a (not too stupid) channel arbitration and i think we'll stay there.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Ninja skills are martial arts, and people break bricks with their hands.

Bricks yes because they are porous, but try that with massive rocks.

Originally Posted by Thorham

It was probably a bug. Why would a skill give experience in two classes, especially if it's the only one?

Actually yes, it was a bug. IIRC common code gave priest level but that action explicitly gave fighter level.

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by meynaf

It is possible but the more channels you add, the lower the single-channel volume you'll get.

Four channels per side should be good (try four channel AHX chip tunes in Delitracker with the headphone mixer in 14 bit, quite loud).

Originally Posted by meynaf

For now we have a (not too stupid) channel arbitration and i think we'll stay there.

I wasn't be serious

Originally Posted by meynaf

Bricks yes because they are porous, but try that with massive rocks

Yes, but it's not easy. Anyway, perhaps it makes sense in a fantasy setting? Unless it's a serious balancing issue, I don't see why it's a necessary change.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Actually yes, it was a bug. IIRC common code gave priest level but that action explicitly gave fighter level.

I'm not surprised, especially not seeing how the original two dungeons give you a mana item very early on.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Thorham

Four channels per side should be good (try four channel AHX chip tunes in Delitracker with the headphone mixer in 14 bit, quite loud).

Chip tunes are usually quite loud. But SFX are of a very different nature.

Originally Posted by Thorham

I wasn't be serious

I know, but it is an idea to consider nonetheless.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Yes, but it's not easy. Anyway, perhaps it makes sense in a fantasy setting? Unless it's a serious balancing issue, I don't see why it's a necessary change.

I did that change precisely because there was a big balancing issue.
Bare hands better than the best weapons in the game, serious ?

Originally Posted by Thorham

I'm not surprised, especially not seeing how the original two dungeons give you a mana item very early on.

I played during many years without even knowing war cry could give priest levels...

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by meynaf

Chip tunes are usually quite loud. But SFX are of a very different nature.

Hadn't considered that.

Originally Posted by meynaf

I know, but it is an idea to consider nonetheless.

Sounds interesting.

Originally Posted by meynaf

I did that change precisely because there was a big balancing issue. Bare hands better than the best weapons in the game, serious ?

Really? Wow, i really didn't know that. Yeah, I understand the change now.

Originally Posted by meynaf

I played during many years without even knowing war cry could give priest levels...

People probably found out by trying to gain early warrior levels with it.

[RogerS]

Originally Posted by Thorham

It was probably a bug. Why would a skill give experience in two classes, especially if it's the only one?

War Cry increasing the Parry skill was introduced in version 1.2. Prior to that it only increased Influence skill (which makes more sense to me).
http://dmweb.free.fr/?q=node/690

Originally Posted by meynaf

I'm glad i didn't attempt to "fix" that.

By the way, poison spell bug was already fixed in my version. I killed the dragon in Kid's dungeon with that spell, just to be sure.

I'm glad to hear that it was already fixed

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by RogerS

War Cry increasing the Parry skill was introduced in version 1.2. Prior to that it only increased Influence skill (which makes more sense to me).
http://dmweb.free.fr/?q=node/690

Yes, but Parry isn't a class, it's a warrior skill. Also, warrior skills affecting warrior skills makes sense. Warrior skills giving Priest experience doesn't. And as I explained, it doesn't really give manaless characters a disadvantage.

[RogerS]

Originally Posted by Thorham

Yes, but Parry isn't a class, it's a warrior skill. Also, warrior skills affecting warrior skills makes sense. Warrior skills giving Priest experience doesn't. And as I explained, it doesn't really give manaless characters a disadvantage.

Yes I'm fully aware that parry is a warrior skill, just like influence is a priest skill.

Prior to 1.2 it only improved the influence skill so it started off as a priest only action.

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by RogerS

Prior to 1.2 it only improved the influence skill so it started off as a priest only action.

That sounds like a bug. A war cry is something that's usually associated with warriors, not priests.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Thorham

That sounds like a bug.

It looks like that prior to 1.2 they just didn't think about it...

Originally Posted by Thorham

A war cry is something that's usually associated with warriors, not priests.

Yep.
On the other hand, they could have named this with something like "hypnotize" and in this case, priest would have been the perfect fit.

[RogerS]

Is there a particular reason you chose to divide health, stamina and mana by 4 when reincarnating CSB champions instead of by 2 like in the Atari ST version?

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by RogerS

Is there a particular reason you chose to divide health, stamina and mana by 4 when reincarnating CSB champions instead of by 2 like in the Atari ST version?

Reincarnation rules are different between DM and CSB. Atari ST version of CSB does it too.

[RogerS]

Originally Posted by meynaf

Reincarnation rules are different between DM and CSB. Atari ST version of CSB does it too.

Please reread my post. I know that reincarnating reduces health, stamina and mana while in DM it remains unchanged.

In the Atari ST version of CSB, they get divided by 2 instead of by 4 in your version.

Starting stats:
https://imgur.com/T8Fra5X

Reincarnated Atari ST:
https://imgur.com/QPT6ygF

Reincarnated CSBWin:
https://imgur.com/Qmo89gf

Reincarnated dmcsb:
https://imgur.com/ED4opOL

[RogerS]

By the way, do you happen to have a properly cracked ADF version of CSB for me?

I have a current run to complete, and the version I have (3.1 cracked by Betrayal) seems like it might be a bit shoddily cracked. Sometimes I hear some horrible disk noises and shortly thereafter it prompts me to insert the Chaos Strikes Back disk in DF0: and I have to click OK to continue. As you can imagine, that can be quite distracting and annoying if I'm in the middle of combat or trying to navigate a treacherous area.

I did try the 3.5 WHDLoad version instead, but that one is very sluggish for me for some reason. I even tried bumping uae_cpu_multiplier up to 32 (which is 113.5MHz) in FS-UAE, but it didn't seem to make much difference if any at all.

I'll definitely be using dmcsb for future runs. Much smoother.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by RogerS

Please reread my post. I know that reincarnating reduces health, stamina and mana while in DM it remains unchanged.

In the Atari ST version of CSB, they get divided by 2 instead of by 4 in your version.

Then i remembered it wrong. I probably wanted to use the rules of Amiga CSB 3.x for some reason.
When i did DmCsb i disassembled several versions and compared the code : Atari ST DM 1.2 (my original one), Atari ST CSB 2.1, Amiga CSB 3.3, Amiga DM 3.6 (i wanted to do DM2 as well but it is too different). In case of a difference i had to choose what looked best to me. I know it is sometimes very arbitrary, but there i could reach very high stats with reincarnated CSB characters so i supposed this was good enough.

Originally Posted by RogerS

By the way, do you happen to have a properly cracked ADF version of CSB for me?

I don't have ADF.
Only thing i have is HD installer for CSB 3.3 and it's French version.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Aardvark

Only thing I miss in DMCSB is "3D" audio. Amiga version chooses the audio channel based on direction the sfx originates, but DMCSB is mono like the ST version.

Ok, so even though DmCsb isn't exactly mono, stereo effects are insufficient.
I'm not exactly a specialist in this area so i've opened a thread about sound spatialization. If something satisfying comes off this, it'll end up in DmCsb.