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#5021 |
Computer Nerd
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Rotterdam/Netherlands
Age: 48
Posts: 3,862
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#5022 |
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Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: France
Posts: 662
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Regarding timeline and sales, one thing I don't understand about Commodore management, and it was at Tramiel time, is why they did not produced a C64 in a PC case style very early. I mean, when you look at the timeline, the C64 (1982) was outputted exactly 1 year after the IBM PC (1981), and 5 years after the apple II (1977). So the concept of a motherboard with optional daughter cards was here since long.
They had the experience of big cases with the PET series, it was not something new for them. So you have an architecture witch kick in the ass, why you don't try to use it against you competitor? Imagine a C64 in a PC case, having internals connectors, and with the bug which made the floppy drive so slowwww corrected. It would have looked good. Now, was it too difficult to add slots to the C64 architecture? I don't know but having MOS Technology in their hands, they could have develop whatever glue chip was needed I guess. So your successful platform is present in several segments at a time when all is not yet decided. It's 1982, not 5 years later with the A500/A2000 and even less 10 with the A1200/A4000. |
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#5023 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Sydney/Australia
Posts: 1,091
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The problem is Commodore configured Educator 64 to be monochrome like the Apple II which is "zero sum" which wouldn't displace the incumbent. Educator 64 lacks the expansion slots of Apple II. Commodore didn't update 65xx CPU family on par with Intel's 16-bit 8086, 16-bit 80286 (with MMU, 24-bit memory address) and 32-bit 80386. Acorn created ARM to address Commodore's 65xx CPU rubbish R&D road map. Commodore purchased the Amiga as a panic move. Microsoft displaced incumbent text-based Lotus 123 and Word Perfect with Mac ports of MS Excel 2.2 and Word 2.0 for Windows 2.0. Last edited by hammer; 05 June 2024 at 01:39. |
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#5024 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Sydney/Australia
Posts: 1,091
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Quote:
I already mentioned PCMCIA's "memory only" and "memory and I/O" modes in this topic. I have a 3rd party AA-Gayle reset fix as mentioned in https://amitopia.com/gayle-reset-fix-amiga-1200/ Using PCMCIA as RAM for A1200's 32-bit 68EC020 is not recommended due to being 16-bit RAM, hence it's a pointless feature. Last edited by hammer; 05 June 2024 at 02:28. |
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#5025 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Sydney/Australia
Posts: 1,091
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Quote:
280 ns read/write cycle translates into 3.57 Mhz. 32-bit Denise ECS+ would be required. https://minuszerodegrees.net/memory/41256.htm Hitachi HM51256P-12 (with 120 ns access time) has 210 ns read/write cycle. GoldStar GM71C256A-80 (with 80 ns access time) has 145 ns read/write cycle translates into 6.89 Mhz. GoldStar GM71C256A-70 (with 70 ns access time) has 130 ns read/write cycle translates into 7.69 Mhz. VRAM in 1987 has 40 ns serial access. VRAM in 1990s has 20 ns serial access. Something like GoldStar GM71C256A-70's would 130 ns read/write cycle allow for 16-bit 7 Mhz. ET4000AX uses 70 ns to 80 ns access time DRAMs with memory interleave mastery. Tseng Labs claims VRAM like performance with memory interleave FP DRAMs. Last edited by hammer; 05 June 2024 at 02:26. |
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#5026 |
Computer Nerd
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Rotterdam/Netherlands
Age: 48
Posts: 3,862
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#5027 |
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Sydney/Australia
Posts: 1,091
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PCMCIA as a RAM expansion method has been displaced by SIMMs.
For single-slot PCMCIA equipped A600/A1200, swapping between PCMCIA RAM expansion and PCMCIA network card is not a good use case. SRAM PCMCIA RAM cards flopped in the PC market. |
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#5028 | ||||||||||
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Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Hastings, New Zealand
Posts: 2,763
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The AAA chipset project began in 1988. The spec for all 4 chips was completed in February 1989, with prototypes planned to be ready by July (Linda), August (Monica and Mary), and January 1990 (Andrea) - a very 'optimistic' time frame. That sounds pretty serious, but it was a much harder task than they expected. Despite having 8 engineers working on it, the schedule kept slipping. According to Ed Helper (one of the engineers working on Andrea), chips of that complexity usually took two to three years to develop. AAA had a total of ~750,000 transistors spread over 4 chips, compared to only 80,000 transistors in AGA. Unlike AGA it wasn't just an enhanced ECS with much of the original intact (same blitter etc.), but a completely new design that still had to be 100% compatible. This was made doubly difficult by coders who (by accident or design) misused the chipset to get various effects. Another problem is that a 1.25 micron process was needed, but CSG was already having trouble doing 2 micron (OCS was 5 micron). A $15 million investment was required for the new process, and it would take a while to get running smoothly. There was no urgency to get AAA finished sooner because they wouldn't be able to test it until they had prototype chips anyway. Even if they had been 'serious' the whole time, AAA probably wouldn't have been ready before 1992, and it wouldn't have gone into low-end Amigas anyway due to its high cost. So while they might have made better progress on AAA by throwing more resources at it, that would have just compound the problem. If instead those 8 engineers had been working on AA from the start they might have been able to meet their tight schedule and have AA machines out in 1990! Quote:
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The A1200 was developed from the A600 because that was the fastest way to get the job done. The same engineer did both, so it was a doddle for him. Same goes for the case design. And by this time the factories were set up to do smd, so production was cheaper too. Quote:
Chunky pixels aren't much of an advantage except for texture mapped 3D, which generally requires a fast CPU to do the 3D math anyway. The correct place to put C2P hardware is on the accelerator card where the CPU can use it at full speed. However once you get past 40MHz software C2P is just as fast because ChipRAM bandwidth is the bottleneck. C2P hardware on the A1200 would have been nice (as it was on the CD32) but not a game changer. Notice how many A1200 accelerator cards came with it after 1993. That's right, none - even though it could easily have been done in a small CPLD. Seems nobody though it was important enough... Quote:
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However the engineers were not happy with Commodore selling the A500 with KS1.3. They wanted everyone using KS2.0 so that developers would use the new OS features and Commodore wouldn't have to support the legacy OS. This is the proximate reason that they replaced the A500 with the A500+, then had to sell them in A500 boxes after they ran out of A500s before Christmas. Doh! |
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#5029 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Sydney/Australia
Posts: 1,091
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Quote:
Acorn designed ARM due to the "no new chips" mentality of Commodore. Commodore relied on external Amiga's technology injection for its 16-bit/32-bit transition. The R&D rot existed after Commodore's MOS purchase and continued into the Amiga era. Commodore's main technology innovation for the A500 is cost reduction based on the existing A1000's technology innovation. A1000's technology innovation factor wasn't repeated by Commodore since the original Los Gatos Amiga team was dismantled in 1987. For the ET4000 series, Tseng Labs mastered memory interleave tech to squeeze out VRAM-like performance from low-cost 70-80 ns access time FP DRAM. ET4000AX was released in 1989. Without mastering memory interleave tech, the VRAM path is a popular route. EDO was released in 1994, replacing FP DRAM. Commodore didn't have a completed graphics chipset for VRAM's price reduction. 3DO team completed a graphics chipset for 20 ns serial access time VRAM (1 MB) and low cost 80 ns access time FP DRAM (2MB), released in Q4 1993. It would be costly for 2 MB VRAM as UMA Chip RAM. Sony's PS1 project had early access to NEC's SGRAM and the game console was completed in early 1994. SGRAM (SDR for graphics) replaced VRAM. S3 Trio64 was released in 1995 with 64-bit wide EDO DRAM. S3 Vision 864/868 used VRAM. S3's approach was cheap EDO DRAM with a wide 64-bit bus. NVIDIA's NV1 used 64-bit wide EDO DRAM and was released in 1995. NVIDIA was targeting game console partnerships during NV1 and NV2. NVIDIA's approach was cheap EDO DRAM with a wide 64-bit bus. 3DFX's Voodoo 1 used 128-bit EDO DRAM and was released in 1996. 3DFX's approach was cheap EDO DRAM with a very wide 128-bit bus. In modern times, NVIDIA has a close partnership with Micron for GDDR6X. A close partnership with a high-performance DRAM manufacturer is important for graphics chipset designers. Commodore had "double rate" leading and failing edge CPU technology. AMD hired C65's CPU designer for K7 Athlon since this CPU has a DDR front-side bus and AMD-760 chipset has DDR SDRAM support. Last edited by hammer; 05 June 2024 at 04:32. |
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#5030 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Hastings, New Zealand
Posts: 2,763
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Indeed, especially after somebody wrote a driver for 'standard' PC cards.
![]() The only problem with PCMCIA is that there's only one port. Yesterday I saw a nice Sony VAIO PCMCIA CD-ROM drive being sold on eBay for a good price. I was tempted, but it would mean unplugging the network card to use it. It's easier for me to just mount CD-ROMs over the network to my WinXP PC. Yesterday I received two more cheap PCMCIA cards from TradeMe (NZ auction site). I want to experiment with them, but not on the A1200 (don't want to risk blowing it up). So I am thinking of making a PCMCIA port adapter for the A500. I may combine this with an ISA bus slot so I can play with those cards too (PCMCIA and ISA bus are actually quite similar). Quote:
The other reason was that it put you in good Company with the Atari Falcon and Mac LC, both of which had 16-bit RAM (source for the goose...). What a wonderful design the Mac LC was, having everything the A1200 should have had - pizza box case with separate keyboard, built in PSU, 16Mhz fully 32-bit 68020 CPU running at full speed, 256 kB of VRAM supporting a display resolution of 512×384 pixels non-interlaced at 8-bit color (or 16-bit color and 640×480 pixels with the 512k upgrade), built in 3.5" SCSI hard drive option, 1.44 MB floppy drive, SIMM sockets for up to 8MB of extra RAM. What more could you want? Well perhaps not being crippled by a 16-bit bus, more than just a single graphics resolution, some hardware acceleration like blitter and sprites etc., broadcast standard PAL/NTSC video output with genlocking, and 4 channel sound with independent playback frequencies that can use the whole 2MB instead of only precious VRAM. A proper multitasking OS would be nice too. Oh yeah, and some kind of external expansion port would be great. Having to use up the Processor Direct slot for your (proprietary, expensive) network card is a bummer. Why couldn't they have put an industry standard PCMCIA slot in it? Oh silly me, it's Apple. They don't follow industry standards. ![]() |
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#5031 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Hastings, New Zealand
Posts: 2,763
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#5032 | |||||||||||||||||||
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Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Sydney/Australia
Posts: 1,091
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Prove it.
http://www.bambi-amiga.co.uk/amigahistory/amigaaaa.html Quote:
http://www.bambi-amiga.co.uk/amigahi...ggebrecht.html Quote:
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After a year of "serious" development, AAA reached the silicon stage with bugs. Quote:
AAA wouldn't solve the 3D problem i.e. AAA is an ET6000 mistake. Quote:
Due to the missing resource tracking in the graphics API feature, the change in timing across various DMA'ed processing units will cause software incompatibility. Note why I mentioned "PS4 mode" for PS4 Pro and PS5 i.e. timing incompatibility is a bitch with hit-the-metal programming with two smart chips i.e. CPU and GpGPU. Vampire's "turtle mode" concept is not new. Quote:
Tseng Labs exited the PC graphics business due to late 3D R&D and a shortage of funds to develop 3D capable ET6300 and sold their graphics business to ATI. ET6000 has excellent 2D, but it's missing 3D, hence Tseng Labs exit. Quote:
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AA with packed pixels will NOT solve the 3D transition issue. Packed pixel-capable SNES still needs SuperFX or various math 3D DSP add-ons. The PC competition has an existing workstation 3D experience! Prove it. Quote:
Note why I mentioned "PS4 mode" for PS4 Pro and PS5 i.e. timing incompatibility is a bitch with hit-the-metal programming with two smart chips i.e. CPU and GpGPU. Vampire's "turtle mode" concept is not new. Fact: AA-Gayle is dependent on A600's Gayle R&D. Budgie has bugs e.g. timing bugs with the expansion card. My A1200 1d4 has timing bugs due to a production error. Quote:
A300 has no effort to be portable i.e. where's the optional LCD screen attachment? Competitors like SNES have been building their install base since 1990 which is very important for mainstream 3rd party studios. AGA only has the full 1993 for a solid sales year. OCS Amigas acted like "Atari ST" against AGA Amigas. PC competition has been building a VGA install base since 1987 and ramped up in 1990 due to twin Windows 3.0 and Wing Commander releases. Quote:
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Without integrated IDE and PCMCIA mandates, A3000's Fat Gary works as is. AA3000+ project was frozen for "more than 6 months" and it was the Pandora AA prototype. This is Commodore management's fault. Quote:
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Akiko C2P hardware was the official Commodore position on the packed pixel issue. https://bigbookofamigahardware.com/b...t.aspx?id=1604 Quote:
Beyond 1992, Motorola's 68040 prices weren't competitive against Intel 486s. Quote:
2. Lew administration has DSP3210 for ALL Amigas. 3. A1200 has a "healthy profit margin" for Commodore UK and Commodore International. CD32's FMV module has the following: 1. 24-bit DAC (STM's STV8438CV) for 16.7 million colors display. 2. MPEG-1 decoder (C-Cube CL450, 352 x 240 pixels @ 30hz, 352 x 288 pixels at 25 Hz, pixel interpolation and frame duplication to produce output formats of 704 x 240 pixels at 60 Hz or 704 x 288 pixels at 50 Hz ), https://websrv.cecs.uci.edu/~papers/...LES/060803.PDF CL450 has about 398K transistors with up to 40 MHz. CL450 includes a programmable on-chip "purpose-built" RISC processor with some assist hardware. In quantities of 100K or more per year, the price is less than $50 in 1992. 3. LSI l64111qc (Digital Audio Decoder, 16-bit DAC), 4. 512 KB local RAM, NEC 423260 DRAM 4Mbit (512 KB) with 80 ns. 5. Lattice ispLSI 1024-60LJ CPLD. Commodore is willing to spend on this non-core business by following the failed CDI. Commodore says NO for RISC co-processor @ 40 Mhz with Amiga's general purpose. Commodore says NO for 512 KB Fast RAM with Amiga's general purpose. Commodore says NO for 24-bit color 704 x 288p with Amiga's general purpose. Commodore says NO for 16-bit stereo audio Amiga's with general purpose. Quote:
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The difference is loss wouldn't be a $300 million mortal financial injury i.e. Commodore International could survive into 1995 instead of stalling on April 29, 1994. Quote:
ReloKick1.3 should been bundled with A500P. Last edited by hammer; 05 June 2024 at 06:03. |
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#5033 | |
Registered User
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Munich/Bavaria
Posts: 2,442
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https://www.go4retro.com/products/x-pander-3/ It is even possible to use two cards at the same time, as long as they are designed for such usage. Sadly not even Bill Herd thought of this for the C128D... |
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#5034 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Germany
Posts: 3,331
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#5035 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Germany
Posts: 3,331
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Quote:
Its registers are 11 bit wide, allowing 2048 bytes(!) to be fetched by scanline. Divide by 3 to get the maximal width for 24-bit truecolor, and consider that you need thrice the pixel speed to get the same amount of pixels on the screen. The ET6000 was already too late in the market to make a substantial difference - Tseng's competitors could deliver more, cheaper. Cirrus died by missing the 3D market, but that's another chapter. Tseng was already brain-dead with the arrival of the ET4000. |
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#5036 | ||
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Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: France
Posts: 662
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Quote:
Refurbished ?? I guess the idea was to lower the cost. Anyway it was dedicated to the education, to oppose Apple's plans. And the keyboard is attached in the PET style, something schools wanted to avoid thief. Look like it was not targeted to IBM's plans. Quote:
![]() So yeah, they did not capitalized on their winning C64 brand. I would have market a "C64 PC" with a very similar case of the IBM PC. The C64 was only 40 columns and the max resolution was a bit lower but the price would have been accordingly. And with cards slot you would be able to promise 80 columns, 640x200 soon. This was done with the VIC-II E of the C128. So I think C64 sales would have rocket even more due to the expandability. You buy it now because it's affordable and because you now that in one year you will buy the "professional" 80 columns graphic card. C64: 320×200, 16 colours IBM PC CGA: 320×200, 4 colours 640×200, 2 colours, one black |
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#5037 | |
Registered User
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Munich/Bavaria
Posts: 2,442
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This is a very different animal - a leftover from the C900 project, that was used for the 80 column mode. But actually it can deliver far higher resolutions: Up to 752x700 (interlaced) in monochrome graphics mode: http://forum.6502.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2523 And even 1024x296/592i in character mode (> 120 characters) https://c-128.freeforums.net/thread/...tion-c128-mode Also a missed opportunity: an ultra cheap VDC-based gfx-card for the A1000 and A2000 |
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#5038 |
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: France
Posts: 662
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My bad, the 8563 yes. Wikipedia do not indicate when it was available. I think it was a bit before the C128 so 1984?
The question is, with a correct focus of the R&D, would it possible to produce A VIC-III in early 1983 (the C64 is August 1982) able to output 640×200, 2 colours to directly compete with CGA without waiting for the 8563? P.S. Thanks for the links. More to read... |
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#5039 | ||||||
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Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Sydney/Australia
Posts: 1,091
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IBM T20 laptop has two PCMCIA slots. DELL Inspiron 5150 laptop has one PCMCIA slot. IBM T20 laptop has SO-DIMM slots. Quote:
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32-bit ALU equipped CPU with 16-bit external bus is like 386SX PC. Quote:
From https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.../c/V5H6hA1TGLg Date: Jun 16, 1993 Quote:
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From Amiga_World_Vol_09_11_1993_Nov.pdf page 94 of 100, in USD. For A1200 Microbotics Expansion Board for the A1200 bare bone = $139 Fast RAM IC 2 MB = $119 Total: $258 USD. Baseboard 1208 bare bone = $124 .99 Baseboard 1208 with 2 MB, 32-bit Fast RAM = $239.99 For A500 Supraram 500 RX with 2 MB RAM = $164 3DO's MADAM (Agnus/Alice equivalent) can access both 2MB 80 ns access FP DRAM and 1 MB 20 ns serial access VRAM. MADAM's UMA has a different memory bandwidth. 3DO's CLIO (Denise/Lisa equivalent) can access 1 MB 20 ns serial VRAM. 3DO solves the expensive UMA 2 MB to 3 MB Chip VRAM problem. Xbox Series X's UMA has different memory bandwidth that is dependant on memory address range i.e. 6GB with 192 bits bus and 10 GB with 320 bits bus. Last edited by hammer; 06 June 2024 at 08:20. |
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#5040 | ||
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Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Sydney/Australia
Posts: 1,091
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https://archive.computerhistory.org/...-05-01-acc.pdf Page 119 of 981 For 1992 68000-12 = $5.5 68EC020-16 PQFP = $16.06, 68EC020-25 PQFP = $19.99, 68EC030-25 PQFP = $35.94 68030-25 CQFP = $108.75 68040-25 = $418.52 68EC040-25 = $112.50 --- Competition AM386-40 = $102.50 386DX-25 PQFP = $103.00 486SX-20 PQFP = $157.75 486DX-33 = $376.75 486DX2-50 = $502.75 Motorola's "zero-sum" price match 68030-25 against Intel's 386DX-25, meanwhile AMD breaks the status quo with Am386-40. Quote:
Microsoft and Apple breaks the status quo with MS Excel and MS Word for Mac and Windows 2.x products against incumbents like high-resolution text-based Lotus 123, Word Star, and Word Perfect. Amiga's Word Perfect 4.x and 5.x ports are from the MS-DOS text version, hence they wouldn't displace the incumbent. Last edited by hammer; 06 June 2024 at 06:56. |
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