Was anyone else disappointed with the A1200?

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by TuRRIcaNEd

Furthermore, the author of that blog post doesn't seem to grok how to use Excel's chart functionality correctly. They're using a stacked area chart, when a stepped area or line chart would be more appropriate. The stacked chart makes it look like the Macintosh was outselling the PC compatibles, which is just laughable.

The last chart in this article is much better. It kinda puts this thread into much needed perspective.

[hammer]

Originally Posted by TuRRIcaNEd

And how much did that setup cost?

https://vintageapple.org/catalogs/pd..._Fall_1993.pdf

Quadra 660AV's cost is $2299 which includes the following items
CPU: 68040 @ 25 Mhz,
Co-processor: DSP3210 @ 55 Mhz,
RAM: 8 MB,
HDD: 230 MB,
VRAM: 1 MB,
Network: Ethernet, AppleTalk,
16-bit audio,
Video In,
Video Out,
Geoport: telecom adapter enables fax and modem capabilities.
This machine is designed for Adobe Premiere NLE.


Quadra 605 cost is $979 which includes the following items
CPU: 68LC040 @ 25 Mhz,
RAM: 4 MB,
HDD: 80 MB,
VRAM: 512 KB,
Network: AppleTalk,
16-bit audio,

vs

https://archive.org/details/amiga-wo...ge/n7/mode/2up
Amigaworld, October 1993, Page 66 of 104
Amiga 4000/040 @ 25Mhz for $2299.

Add Tooster Flyer for NLE capabilities.
Add an Ethernet card for network capabilities.


Apple's customer base spent 1.2 million PowerMacs in 1 year i.e. 1994.

Apple replaced the 68040/DSP3210 Quadra with PowerMac with the PowerPC 601 in 1994.

Originally Posted by TuRRIcaNEd

Apropos of nothing, the second PC I built was set up around an OG (Slot A) Athlon 700 and the GeForce 256 - the VIA chipset was annoyingly problematic at times...

I replaced my Y2001 Athlon 1.1 Ghz TBird+MSI K7T133A Turbo-R (VIA KT133A) with Y2002 Athlon XP 2000+ (1.67 Ghz) Palomino + ASUS A7N8X Deluxe (nForce2 with IEEE-1394 FireWire).

I used Athlon XP 2000+ASUS A7N8X Deluxe (nForce2) for non-profit organization NLE video work. IEEE-1394 FireWire was used for bulk MPEG2 transfers from digital cams.

MSI K7T133A Turbo-R https://www.anandtech.com/show/711/8

ASUS A7N8X Deluxe https://www.anandtech.com/show/1044/7

Before MSI K7T133A Turbo-R, I had Celeron 533Mhz with 440ZX.

Originally Posted by TuRRIcaNEd

Not exactly - though I'm sure you know that... Intel tried to leverage the Pentium 4, only for AMD to eat their lunch by hiring a bunch of former DEC engineers and designing a superscalar processor that was effectively an x86 emulation layer hooked up to a turbocharged RISC back-end derived from the DEC Alpha.

AMD gained former DEC engineers via NexGen purchase. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NexGen

NexGen's in-development Nx686 was renamed into AMD's K6 since AMD's K5 runs into the clock speed wall.

Originally Posted by TuRRIcaNEd

It's also worth pointing out that CBM were looking into the DEC Alpha to power the next-gen Amiga platform if I recall correctly.

Rumors.

Originally Posted by TuRRIcaNEd

But the PowerPC was an IBM technology that Apple just happened to use.

"IBM approached Apple with the goal of collaborating on the development of a family of single-chip microprocessors based on the POWER architecture. Soon after, Apple, being one of Motorola's largest customers of desktop-class microprocessors, asked Motorola to join the discussions due to their long relationship, Motorola having had more extensive experience with manufacturing high-volume microprocessors than IBM, and to form a second source for the microprocessors".

Timeline:

In September 1990, Microsoft broke with I.B.M. over the role of Microsoft's increasingly popular Windows 3.0.

The AIM alliance, also known as the PowerPC alliance, was formed on October 2, 1991, between Apple, IBM, and Motorola.

Originally Posted by TuRRIcaNEd

And in commodity PC terms, it was a sales flop in its original form. The P6 architecture was re-tooled later, but that's another story.

Pentium Pro has a compromised 16-bit performance. Pentium II fixed this issue.

Originally Posted by TuRRIcaNEd

Doesn't matter - it's still but one more piece of evidence demonstrating that Apple hardware has always been overpriced, underpowered garbage.

That's false in the 1994 and 1995 time periods. Hint: SpecFP92.

My 1996 selection is based on games, hence the gaming PC (Pentium 150) is selected.

Originally Posted by TuRRIcaNEd

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that graph only shows an uptick in PC compatible sales from 1984 onwards, with the significant uptick starting in 1987.

1. Wintel has a superior distribution model i.e. there are multiple vendors for PC clones.

2. Windows 2.x 286/386 with Mac ports of Excel (1988) and Word 2.0 (1989) has dislodged text-based Lotus 123 and Word Prefect.

Compaq was involved with MS's Windows 2.x 386 development and other clones followed.

Originally Posted by TuRRIcaNEd

Furthermore, the author of that blog post doesn't seem to grok how to use Excel's chart functionality correctly. They're using a stacked area chart, when a stepped area or line chart would be more appropriate. The stacked chart makes it look like the Macintosh was outselling the PC compatibles, which is just laughable.

According to Dataquest November 1989, VGA crossed more than 50 percent market share in 1989 i.e. 56%.
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/c...lysis_1989.pdf

Low-End PC Graphics Market Share by Standard Type
Estimated Worldwide History and Forecast

Total low-end PC graphic chipset shipment history and forecast
1987 = 9.2. million, VGA 16.4% market share i.e. 1.5088 million VGA.
1988 = 11.1 million, VGA 34.2% i.e. 1.51 million VGA.
1989 = 13.7 million, VGA 54.6% i.e. 3.80 million VGA.
1990 = 14.3 million, VGA 66.4% i.e. 9.50 million VGA.
1991 = 15.8 million, VGA 76.6% i.e. 12.10 million VGA.
1992 = 16.4 million, VGA 84.2% i.e. 13.81 million VGA.
1993 = 18.3 million, VGA 92.4% i.e. 16.9 million VGA.

Apple had 1.2 million PowerMac unit sales in 1994.

Originally Posted by TuRRIcaNEd

But the platform lacked sufficient RAM out-of-the-box and expandability to make that software work in a practical manner.

The Macintosh 512K was released in September 1984 replacing Macintosh 128K (released January 1984).

Originally Posted by TuRRIcaNEd

VideoToaster says "What am I, chopped liver"?

What are VideoToaster unit sales? Can VideoToaster match Apple's 1.2 million unit sales in a single year?

Fact: the Amiga didn't deliver video NLE to the masses.

VideoToaster doesn't deliver general-purpose 24-bit graphics for the Amiga and the mass-produced wedge Amigas are closed off from it. Prove the A2000 has 1 million unit sales in 1 year!

AGA's install base
Germany:
Amiga 1200 = 95,500
Amiga CD32 = 25,000
Amiga 4000/030 = 7,500
Amiga 4000/040 = 3,800
Sub-total: 131,800

https://web.archive.org/web/20230726...ory/sales.html

UK:
Amiga 1200 (Oct - Dec 1992) = 44,000 (Amiga Format May 1993)
Amiga 1200 (Jan - Aug 1993) = 100,000 (Amiga Format September 1993)
Amiga 1200 (Xmas 1993) = 160,000 (Amiga Format 56 Feb 1994)
Amiga CD32 (Xmas 1993) = 70,000 (Amiga Format 56 Feb 1994)
Sub-total: 374,000

AGA install base from Amiga's strongest markets: 505,800.

Amiga 2200 (based on CD32), https://bigbookofamigahardware.com/b...uct.aspx?id=19
65,000 CD32 motherboards assigned to Amitech's Amiga 2200.

Potential AGA install base: 570,800 units, in addition to Escom's 20,000 for A1200.

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by hammer

Amiga 2200 (based on CD32), https://bigbookofamigahardware.com/b...uct.aspx?id=19
65,000 CD32 motherboards assigned to Amitech's Amiga 2200.

I wonder why Escom never picked up this idea (and include a CD-ROM as well) ... and what happened to the 65,000 CD32 motherboards bigbookofamigahardware is talking about...

These A 2200 would have sold in Germany quite well even in the Escom years.

Are there still some forgotten containers somewhere on this planet? A landfill full of CD32 motherboards?

This reminds me of the Apple Lisa rumors or the Atari game cartridges.

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by dreadnought

The last chart in this article is much better. It kinda puts this thread into much needed perspective.

To me it shows, that there was a moment in time in 91-92, where the PC dominance was under pressure.
DOS was getting old and had a really bad user experience - Windows 3.0 was too demanding, not stable and look and feel was still terrible.
Mac (USA) and Amiga (Europe) were able to step in as an alternative and gained momentum.

With a better product lineup and earlier AGA, the Amiga could have established an enduring user base right there. But you can't do that with low-end machines targeting only kids and gamers alone, but you need to target a more semi-professional and power-user base.

[Turrican_3]

Originally Posted by Gorf

To me it shows, that there was a moment in time in 91-92, where the PC dominance was under pressure.

Not sure about this.

What I see is a comparatively very small dip below 80% market share, hardly something I'd define "being under pressure"

Unless you meant circa 1985, but then the following remarks about DOS basically dying wouldn't make sense.

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by Turrican_3

Not sure about this.

What I see is a comparatively very small dip below 80% market share, hardly something I'd define "being under pressure"

91-92.
It is clear reversal of a 10-year-long trend. The first time (and only time in this graph) PCs were actually losing marketshare.

[Turrican_3]

I see your point but I'm still not sure it fits the definition of actually being under pressure.

I mean competition was hugely fragmented and only one was barely over 10% according to the graph.

1983-87 feels way closer to that definition if you ask me.

[Promilus]

Well that dip in market share was bigger than amiga marketshare ever so if there was actually competitive machine with abundance of software and interesting for developers ...

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by Turrican_3

1983-87 feels way closer to that definition if you ask me.

You mean when the PC trajectory is almost vertical? How would that fit the definition??

[AestheticDebris]

Originally Posted by Promilus

Well that dip in market share was bigger than amiga marketshare ever so if there was actually competitive machine with abundance of software and interesting for developers ...

There was. The Macintosh, which pretty much spikes around the same time before dying off slowly again.

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by AestheticDebris

There was. The Macintosh, which pretty much spikes around the same time before dying off slowly again.

Yes.
We can see the Mac could take most advantage of the market situation here - probably mostly in the US. The Amiga initially also got its share increased - killing off the Atari ST in the process.
But while the Mac was able to continue with a slight upward trend the following year, the Amiga plummeted.

[Promilus]

Originally Posted by AestheticDebris

There was. The Macintosh, which pretty much spikes around the same time before dying off slowly again.

Yeah, I know, I can also read those graphs
My point is... if C= did develop better machine, advertise it properly and set up new creative and popular software for it they might be the ones to eat that cake. But Macs weren't "cheapest possible" and they stole part of the market nevertheless. What is actual difference between 030 and 040 based Macs and Amiga? Hmm ...

[AestheticDebris]

Originally Posted by Promilus

Yeah, I know, I can also read those graphs
My point is... if C= did develop better machine, advertise it properly and set up new creative and popular software for it they might be the ones to eat that cake. But Macs weren't "cheapest possible" and they stole part of the market nevertheless. What is actual difference between 030 and 040 based Macs and Amiga? Hmm ...

That was around the time Apple launched low cost Mac models (a short lived trend). I suspect what you're seeing in those dips is the cheaper Mac models eating into the PC share, rather than necessarily reacting to it.

[babsimov]

Originally Posted by hammer

Pocket Quake project has rewritten substantial portions of the source code as fixed-point integers.

This may indicate that something similar could have been done for Hombre-based CD64. And it could even have been easier, because when re-reading the documents I read that some floating point instructions were included.

Originally Posted by hammer

Rendition Verite V1000 has an MIPS-like CPU with 3D extensions.

https://vintage3d.org/verite1.php#sthash.nVkUWaAD.dpbs
"Canopus Total3D fall short of average framerates of S3 Virge /GX2 by 7%."

"V1000L-P to be 46% of Voodoo performance overall, were OpenGL Quake games are significantly lower at 33% however VQuakes are running at 75%-95% of Voodoo".

Rendition Verite V1000 wasn't optimized for OpenGL, hence the large difference between Verite specfic VQuake vs other OpenGL games.

This is for V1000L-P which replaced the initial V1000-E.
----------------
https://fabiensanglard.net/vquake/
For the initial V1000-E chip,

From Walt Donovan (Algorithm Architect)


Amiga Hombre's entry point is based on price.

Thanks, I've never heard of that.

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by hammer

My AA-Gayle on my A1200 rev1d4 still has bugs e.g. PCMCIA reset problems which needed 3rd party fix.

It's not a bug in Gayle. Back in 1996 I thought it was, but it turned out to be an undocumented (?) change that didn't get into the OS. Since Commodore didn't know about this it therefore follows that it had no effect on the A1200's release schedule.

https://forum.amiga.org/index.php?topic=62394.0
A1200 with PCMCIA lockups in 2012.

I also encountered A1200 PCMCIA lockups.

The same PCMCIA cards works on DELL Inspiron 5150 (Pentium 4 Northwood 3.4 Ghz mobile). DELL Inspiron 510m (Pentium M 1.6 Ghz) and IBM T20 (Pentium III 700 Mhz) laptops.

Shall I tell you about the PC cards that won't work in my IBM Thinkpad?

If a PC card causes the A1200 to lock up it's not due to a bug in the PCMCIA port hardware. Most likely it's because the card is doing something naughty that just happens to be benign on most PCs.

A Google search brings up plenty of complaints from PC users. Here's an example:-

NI PCMCIA-CAN/2 crashes Windows XP

Hello.

I am attempting to install a NI PCMCIA-CAN/2 Series 2 card in an IBM Thinkpad T30. I have installed Labview 7.1 and the most recent NI-CAN software (2.3.3). With the card inserted into either of the two PCMCIA slots, the machine will freeze mid-boot...

Hi Chris,

I have seen a lot of different problems with IBM laptops, but not with this specific model. My gut feel is that the laptop does not fully comply with the PCMCIA standard. Here are a couple of suggestions for you to try:

1. Change the cardbus controller to the generic Windows CardBus Controller. Go to the Windows Device Manager and open the properties for the Cardbus Controller located under PCMCIA adapters. Click on the Driver Tab, and then select Update Driver. Select "Install from a list or specific location" and click Next. Select "Don't search", and click Next. Finally, select the Generic Cardbus Controller and click Next. After completing click Finish and reboot the machine.

2. Try disabling the 3COM adapter, and any other extraneous (for now) devices like any built in serial and parallel ports. The best way to do this is probably to disable them in the BIOS...

Hi Robert

Unfortunately, neither of your suggestions (in any combination) worked.

What a nightmare!

When Commodore developed the PCMCIA slot on the A600, the standard for PC cards had not yet been finalized. Furthermore the Amiga is not using one of the 'industry standard' PCMCIA interface chips designed for PC laptops, and even if it was the OS is very different so there are bound to be some compatibility issues. This is not Commodore's fault. There were compatibility issues with PCs running Linux too.

Considering all that I think we are lucky that so many PC cards do work in the A600 and A1200. When I wrote my driver for CNet network cards I got a message from the maintainer of the iCard driver. He expressed surprise that I had managed to get it working. According to him the iCard was specially designed for the Amiga because the Amiga's PCMCIA slot was fundamentally incompatible with PC cards.

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by Gorf

Yes.
We can see the Mac could take most advantage of the market situation here - probably mostly in the US. The Amiga initially also got its share increased - killing off the Atari ST in the process.
But while the Mac was able to continue with a slight upward trend the following year, the Amiga plummeted.

The Mac's upward trend didn't last long. They made too many models and changed them too often. Then when Windows 95 came out Apple didn't have the new OS they were supposed to be producing at great expense (a billion dollars in R&D wasted). To compound the error they decided to let the Mac be cloned. These missteps almost sunk the company.

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by Gorf

To me it shows, that there was a moment in time in 91-92, where the PC dominance was under pressure.
DOS was getting old and had a really bad user experience - Windows 3.0 was too demanding, not stable and look and feel was still terrible.
Mac (USA) and Amiga (Europe) were able to step in as an alternative and gained momentum.

That's not why the PC was under pressure, and the Amiga wasn't going to benefit.

PERSONAL COMPUTERS; Behind the Price Cuts

May 28, 1991

COMPUTER companies are cutting prices once again, partly in response to the recession and decreased demand and partly because regular price reductions are a byproduct of progress in the industry.

But there is a more profound reason for the recent price reductions by the Compaq Computer Corporation and the International Business Machines Corporation, among others. There appears to have been a fundamental shift in the buying attitudes of consumers.

"Buyers are no longer willing to pay premium brand prices" for computers that differ only in the nameplate on the cover of the box, said Bruce A. Stephen, director of PC hardware research for the International Data Corporation of Framingham, Mass. "Brand name loyalties that were firm are now more tenuous," he said.

As a result, "premium brand" computer companies are discovering that they must become as aggressive about pricing as they are about bringing new technologies to market...

Even Apple Computer Inc., which has no direct competition for its Macintosh but which must still compete against industry-standard PC's, has shifted its emphasis to lower-cost machines.

People were still buying plenty of PCs, but they were increasingly cheap Asian clones rather than name brands like IBM and Compaq.

You are wrong about Windows 3.0. It was a big advance on the earlier version and was very popular. In its 2 year lifespan (before Windows 3.1) it sold ~10 million copies. More importantly, it included the most played computer game of all time, Microsoft Solitaire. If only Commodore had bundled a clone of that game on the Amiga, it might have gained a greater market share!

Originally Posted by Gorf

With a better product lineup and earlier AGA, the Amiga could have established an enduring user base right there. But you can't do that with low-end machines targeting only kids and gamers alone, but you need to target a more semi-professional and power-user base.

Earlier AGA would have been great, for sure. The Amiga never targeted 'only kids and gamers', so there was nothing to worry about there.

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

People were still buying plenty of PCs, but they were increasingly cheap Asian clones rather than name brands like IBM and Compaq.

No that does not explain the decrease in marketshare:
this is also visible in the number of units sold - so a shift to cheaper PCs is not the cause here.

Earlier AGA would have been great, for sure. The Amiga never targeted 'only kids and gamers', so there was nothing to worry about there.

They did with the focus on low end models, while even the A2000 was overpriced for years, let alone the A3000 and A4000.

[HornBeamSoft]

7 years 250 pages of nothing. And now someone check it.
DoomAttack with Akiko C2P on CD32 + Fast (WicherCD32) run like on 386
[ Show youtube player ]
It is good enough to let Commodore reach next level Hombre.
Commodore bankrupt because AGA has not chunky pixels. Case closed.

[hammer]

Originally Posted by HornBeamSoft

7 years 250 pages of nothing. And now someone check it.
DoomAttack with Akiko C2P on CD32 + Fast (WicherCD32) run like on 386
[ Show youtube player ]
It is good enough to let Commodore reach next level Hombre.
Commodore bankrupt because AGA has not chunky pixels. Case closed.

That's not 386DX-33 with ET4000 level results.

[ Show youtube player ]
i386DX-33 with ET4000 SVGA card running Doom.

The cost difference between 68EC020-25 and 68EC020-16 is about $4.

WicherCD32 supports 50 to 60 ns EDO RAM.

https://www.datasheetcatalog.com/dat...805BJ-50.shtml
HYB5117805BJ-50 EDO RAM example has a read/write cycle time of 84 ns which translates to 11.9 Mhz, about 47.6 MB/s 32-bit. The bottleneck is the 14 Mhz 68EC020 due to very low IPC.

Ideally, the CPU should be able to deliver 47 MIPS for 47 MB/s but 68EC020 @ 14 Mhz with Fast RAM is below 3 MIPS.

CD32 needs $20 DSP3210 (12.7 MIPS, 25 MFLOPS @ 50 Mhz, separate integer and floating point pipelines) when coupled with 120 ns read/write cycle time Fast RAM (33 MB/s effective). For small-budget transistor budgets, RISC and DSP have superior memory bandwidth usage. 040 class CPU is needed for this type of memory performance, but Motorola doesn't sell $20-to-$30 68LC040 CPUs, hence DSP3210 is selected as a candidate.