AmigaOS 3.1.4 withdrawn from market after Amiga

[Gorf]

Well maybe I just have different perception of Kollas writing than others ... I do not mind some "negativity" or harsh criticism as long as it is reasonable or backed with some substance...

As far as I can see here Kolla was not targeting someone in a personal way or arguing ad hominem - but that is certainly not true the other way around now.

So yes: in this thread I am biased towards Kolla for the above mentioned reasons.

[Tigerskunk]

Originally Posted by Gorf

Some even try to bring his personal life into this... you and others keep on mentioning other forums or complete different subjects or in combination:
his alleged bad behavior in other forums at completely different subject...

All things that should not be mentioned in a good discussion.

Come on.
It's the sum of someones behaviour that gives people an impression about that person.
Everybody is negative once in a while.

All I ever read from Kolla though is criticizing stuff, without him ever giving something equally big back to the community.

I don't want him to fix the bugs in 3.1.4. nor does every customer need to be completely happy about the things which he or she buys.

But if all you ever do is talk other peoples stuff down, don't wonder all the wind you sow will bring you a storm in the future.

This community has had enough negative people in the past, and I am happy we are off to better waters now with all the nice developments of the last few years (new games, OS 3.1.4., new cases and keys, the Vampires, new other hardware from people like Matze, etc).

[DamienD]

Ok, let's get back on topic now please guys

[SpeedGeek]

Originally Posted by Gorf

Well - Kolla was certainly very insisting and quite absolute or unforgiving about the things he criticized - but still it was a valid criticism. I do not see why this would qualify as "trolling".

Same goes for Thomas: while he was rude and arguing ad hominem in his last sentence, he is no troll.
But he was responding towards criticism in a rather unprofessional manner.

In kolla's case, it's not simply a matter of offering criticism or even a bug report, but the subtle/indirect approach of repeating it again and again with such a negative attitude that it rises to the level of trolling. An example from amigaworld.net is "Why don't you ask Thomas about the work of SpeedGeek and his benchmarks?"

In Thomas' case, just because you have not observed the many blatant and "Rude" trolling attacks against me and Cosmos does not mean they didn't happen. The most recent (against me) are an accusation of "Lying" on amiga.org and a comment on a1k.org that my "Uneducated" opinion was not welcome.

[Minuous]

He is very abrasive in his manner, he makes some valid points at times but phrases everything in a hostile way.

[daxb]

The best way is to take the valid points he made and ignore the phrases. At least I can live with it. Oh... and I've forgotten what the topic was.

[Dunny]

Thread lock requested. I don't see this becoming positive any time soon.

[malko]

Originally Posted by AMIGASYSTEM

[...] I'm in favor of Gorf and Kolla, [...]

The point is not to be in favour or against someone. It's a question of manners, so more on the form than on the content.

@Gorf: in the following, I do see apologies from a developer :

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

First of all, let me say that I am sorry that I missed a bug in the shell, despite testing. [...] Strangely, this was not detected during testing, which still astonishes me given that the shell was under test for quite a while.
[...]
Will this be fixed? Of course it will. There will be an update, tentatively scheduled for Q1 2019, but as always, it will be ready when it will be ready. According to my information, this will be a free update for 3.1.4 owners.
[...]
I just don't want to let things stand as incorrect as they are.

Originally Posted by daxb

[...] Oh... and I've forgotten what the topic was.

There are issues on 3.1.4 and they are going to be fixed.
Incidentally, several Amiga parties are in courtroom and everyone is waiting to know which interpretation will be adopted by the judge.
And nothing is certain in advance for either party...

Edit: please no lock on this thread. I am interested in the various news that are coming concerning the court case.

[amiwolf]

Originally Posted by malko

Edit: please no lock on this thread. I am interested in the various news that are coming concerning the court case.

I second that. Perhaps an AmigaOS 3.1.4 bug tracker thread for those other concerns.

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by AMIGASYSTEM

You do not want me, I'm in favor of Gorf and Kolla, if something does not work why not say it (at my request nobody gave a precise answer) woe if there were no criticism in my opinion always constructive even if they are exaggerated.

Criticism is one thing, constant whining and put-downs is another. But hey, it's an Amiga tradition!

We are in 2019 .... we can still market an AMiGA OS that only serves to have fun or retrace the past times?

Yes.

OS Amiga is now too far behind and can not compete with anyone and its marketing will lead to the fragment of users and its final death.

Amiga OS was too far behind and could not compete with 'anyone' (read Microsoft) since 1985. For Amigas however, it's the other OS's that can't compete. Between 1985 and 1994 a total of 4-7 million Amigas were sold. If only 1% of those are still viable that still represents a potential customer base of 40,000 or more. Not competitive with Windows or macOS for sure, but when you have a captive market that other OS producers are ignoring it doesn't need to be.

In my opinion, the free distribution would allow "everyone" to test and better and maybe to make it grow so much that it could be worthy of this name as it was in the past.

IMO, free distribution will lead to the fragment of users and its final death. Free distribution means no incentive for developers apart from personal satisfaction and appreciation from users, further eroded by the inevitable whining and put-downs (which won't stop just because they are giving it away).

Wanting stuff for free is another Amiga tradition that still lives on. Everybody complained about the price of software, but few did the right thing and bought it to increase the market and get prices down (turns out the 'right' price for many was the cost of a blank disk). Now Hyperion are offering the first real upgrade to OS3 in 25 years for a very reasonable price, and some people still think it's too much.

Commodore made a lot of mistakes, but they managed to produce a brilliant OS and hardware that stood the test of time. Could they have done that by distributing it all for free? Of course not. And the situation hasn't really changed much since then. 25 years and leaked source code hasn't produced anything worthwhile, it still took a commercial enterprise to get real progress.

[DamienD]

Ok, here's the deal... if you guys want the thread to remain open then no more personal bashing of members / developers.

Going forward from this post, please just stay on topic and move on.

Quite simple really and the last thing I say on the subject... the outcome is in your hands depending on how you proceed.

[utri007]

Originally Posted by DamienD

Ok, here's the deal... if you guys want the thread to remain open then no more personal bashing of members / developers.

Going forward from this post, please just stay on topic and move on.

Quite simple really and the last thing I say on the subject... the outcome is in your hands depending on how you proceed.

Thread has a problems and one of them is "untrue" title. It sounds like some kind of statement. It makes situation to sounds like you can't buy it NOW. And it was never withdrawn, there was a temporary problems with payment operator.

[DamienD]

Originally Posted by utri007

Thread has a problems and one of them is "untrue" title. It sounds like some kind of statement. It makes situation to sounds like you can't buy it NOW. And it was never withdrawn, there was a temporary problems with payment operator.

I didn't create the thread, the person who made the 1st post did...

You want this changed; what to then considering thread has gone off on many different tangents?

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

Criticism is one thing, constant whining and put-downs is another. But hey, it's an Amiga tradition!

followed by:

Amiga OS was too far behind and could not compete with 'anyone' (read Microsoft) since 1985.

hope you see what you did there?

This is not only a massive put-down, but frankly this statement is also absolute nonsense.
(Do I really have to tell why? I think we both lived back then and know better ....)

IMO, free distribution will lead to the fragment of users and its final death.

I know ... you are against OSS and you repeat this statement every time... despite of being proven wrong.

Fragmentation? Really? Where are you living?
WarpOS vs. PowerUp, CyberVision vs. P96, MUI vs. Reaktion, ELF vs. Hunk, MorphOS vs. OS4 .......
Closed Source obviously did lead to fragmentation as well - and it already killed everything!
We are already far beyond death!

So please: be reasonable and have a look across the fence - please look at RiscOS and how well they are doing now, since the OS ist open source.
Please look at GEM and MintOS at the Atari-realm ...

And even if you refuse to acknowledge the obvious evidence:
What could possibly be worse than the current situation????

Free distribution means no incentive for developers apart from personal satisfaction and appreciation from users,

You are aware, that none of the developers of version 3.1.4 received anything beyond that?

Please Bruce - think twice (or more) - really

[Minuous]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

the first real upgrade to OS3 in 25 years

That isn't correct; you are forgetting OS3.5 and OS3.9.

[gulliver]

Anyway, back to the topic of the litigation:

I think that the next ruling about 3.1.4 will certainly be a preview of who will be the overall winner in this case.

Yet, I have no clue who will win.

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by Gorf

This is not only a massive put-down, but frankly this statement is also absolute nonsense.

I was talking about people, not platforms.

But what I said was true - the Amiga never had a chance of competing against PCs. Its only hope was to find a niche market where it could avoid competition - which it finally has!

(Do I really have to tell why? I think we both lived back then and know better ....)

Yep, and some refused to acknowledge the facts back then too.

I know ... you are against OSS and you repeat this statement every time... despite of being proven wrong.

I am not against open source software (I expect to release some of my own in the next few days...). But I would rather not have my OS in the hands of a 'community' that keeps changing it to suit the whims of whoever can be bothered working on it.

WarpOS vs. PowerUp, CyberVision vs. P96, MUI vs. Reaktion, ELF vs. Hunk, MorphOS vs. OS4 .......
Closed Source obviously did lead to fragmentation as well - and it already killed everything!

WarpOS, PowerUp, CyberVision, P96, ELF, MorphOS, OS4 were all developed to support other hardware. You think those hardware manufacturers should have made their all their products open source? I bet that idea would have gone down like a lead balloon.

MUI vs. ReAction? It's unfortunate that either of them has effectively become a part of the OS, and open source wouldn't make it any better.

please look at RiscOS and how well they are doing now, since the OS ist open source. Please look at GEM and MintOS at the Atari-realm ...

As part of my renewed interest in vintage computers I considered getting an ST or Archimedes, but couldn't get enthused.

But hey, it's worth a look, right?

Google "Atari-realm MinTOS" - 28,400 results. Hmm, not looking good.
Try "Atari MinTOS" - 32,400 results. Not much better, but at least there's a website:- MiNTOS Distribution. Is this what I am looking for?

MiNTOS Distribution and Information Page.
MiNTOS is now at Release 1.4.1.
MiNTOS is a package of utilities which run under the MiNT operating system extension for the Atari ST, TT and Falcon ranges of computers to provide a multi-user environment...

What next?
Unfortunately I can no longer work on this package as my TT has died. So, it's up to the rest of the Atari community to take this on and carry on improving it. Sorry.

I'll still be able to support it as much as I can without being able to run it, however.

Stephen Usher Stephen.Usher@earth.ox.ac.uk

11th August, 1995.

What could possibly be worse than the current situation????

What could be worse? Every producer who tries to keep control of their IP is put down and leaves the Amiga market in disgust. OS development and 'distribution' is left up to a 'community' of individuals who all have their own ideas on what it should be. Anyone who refuses to go along with them is accused of being a Luddite.

You are aware, that none of the developers of version 3.1.4 received anything beyond that?

At one time I was a commercial Amiga software developer. In the end the company failed and I did not recover my investment, but I still feel it was worth doing. However, had someone told told me at the start that I would be put down for being 'selfish'...

[E-Penguin]

Originally Posted by gulliver

Anyway, back to the topic of the litigation:

I think that the next ruling about 3.1.4 will certainly be a preview of who will be the overall winner in this case.

Yet, I have no clue who will win.

They'll probably come up with another cludge agreement and carry on as before.

In an ideal world they'd form a new holding company together and jointly develop stuff but cooperation seems a long way off.

[kolla]

Originally Posted by E-Penguin

They'll probably come up with another cludge agreement and carry on as before.

I don't think so. As reported a few time, the Hyperion people have screwed up too many relationships and stepped on too many toes, it has become "personal". The "amiga parties" and their allies want Hyperion out of the way, so that A-EON/AmigaKit can take over responsibility of development, along with Cloanto. Together they are more than capable to organize something that would benefit everyone.

In an ideal world they'd form a new holding company together and jointly develop stuff but cooperation seems a long way off.

That company already exists, the only thing that stands in the way, are a jackass lawyer and a couple of his skinhead thugs (none of whom are developers btw.)

[McTrinsic]

Originally Posted by kolla

[...]
That company already exists, the only thing that stands in the way, are a jackass lawyer and a couple of his skinhead thugs (none of whom are developers btw.)

Please be notified that this kind of language and probably respective attitude is why I stopped answering to you in this thread.