19 January 2021, 23:45 | #461 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Ur, Atlantis
Posts: 2,046
|
Quote:
CD32 was a gaming console, first and foremost, and as such had to compete with all the other consoles which mattered at the time, or would matter soon, no matter what storage medium they might have used. Its CD capabilities were some sort of a selling point, sure, but clearly not big enough, same as for all the other CD machines from that time. That would only change with arrival of proper 3D...but, wait, we've already discussed that elsewhere, haven't we? |
|
20 January 2021, 10:00 | #462 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Hastings, New Zealand
Posts: 2,719
|
Quote:
There are good reasons for putting the power switch on the back - it keeps the power wiring short to reduce voltage drop, allows use of a reliable toggle switch rather than a dodgy press-on/press-off type, and it takes up less room on the motherboard (the CD32 is packed pretty tight). I am thinking about all the computers and other electronic devices I have, and can't think of any that have the power switch on the top. So... a pretty lame complaint. CD32 uses a standard audio CD mechanism, and yes it's a cheap one but at least that means you can get a replacement cheaply. My PlayStation stopped reading discs and that was the end of it. I didn't have any problems with the lid on my CD32. I did have to throw away several expensive CDROM drives and Writers in PCs over the years, some of which had hardly any use. The edge connector is unreliable? First I heard of it. I remember trying to repair a NES though - that cartridge connector is abominable! I had a Sega SC3000H that took cartridges too. Every now and then I had to take it apart and resolder the socket pins on the cheap single sided PCB. Shall I mention the numerous home computers with flaky edge connectors that weren't gold plated? And my PlayStation had constant trouble with its special video connector. The CD32 was rushed - and just as well too or otherwise we wouldn't have it. But they still managed to do a pretty good job of it. |
|
20 January 2021, 10:16 | #463 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Novi Sad, Serbia
Posts: 1,696
|
Quote:
https://www.bioped.com/wp-content/up...separate-2.jpg |
|
20 January 2021, 11:14 | #464 | |||||
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 3,436
|
Quote:
Now, AGA specific games that don't use Dual Playfield and/or aren't ports can indeed do better. But there's not many of those and honestly, the graphics for them don't look that different from what the SNES shows. It doesn't help that the majority of AGA games don't actually run in 128 or 256 colours mode either, which further limits the advantage it might have. Quote:
I have no issues with the CD32, it's a fine system that does what it does well enough. But that doesn't mean it's better than other systems at all tasks. Case in point: it's usually going to be worse at action games than the 16 bit consoles (which is also what we actually see in the results, so it's not something I've just made up). That's a bummer, I wish it was different because I really like the Amiga. But it's also true and we shouldn't pretend otherwise. Quote:
Quote:
Look, I've said many times in the past that I feel that AGA/A1200/CD32 are underrated. But that doesn't mean I therefore think we should pretend they are better at console style games than the consoles were (which is clearly what Gilbert is trying to prove with his spec sheets and constant references to those kind of games). We should be fair and honest about what the systems can and can't do. Want to compare action games? Sorry, the consoles were better at them (though I'm certain that with similar development methods we could have gotten similarly titles in terms of playability). Want to compare strategy/adventure games? Yeah, the Amiga did those better. Quote:
These things were and still are available today for a rather low cost. It was a very common fix back in the day, I'm genuinely shocked you didn't know that as they were advertised for all over the place. I remember that mine also broke after I had it a few years, it was like a €20-30 replacement and then it worked again. Last edited by roondar; 20 January 2021 at 13:33. Reason: Preventing double posts |
|||||
20 January 2021, 16:50 | #465 | |||||
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 318
|
Quote:
That's a fair choice with the A500. It def made the most impact at the time. I used to have an A500. But CD32 is much better imo Neo Geo CD was a luxury console (with huge RAM for the time) with a limited release. It also has dodgy (cutdown games) when compared to the original Neo Geo and only originally had a single speed CD. Agreed it is very powerful for 2D graphics but it has no proper 3D capability. Jaguar is from the next gen so should be compared against the CD64 As "systems" Megadrive and SNES are superior. I have already said they have better games. My argument was purely from a technical point of view. It's just a lot of Megadrive owners got over-sensitive about it and tried to make it sound I was saying the CD32 was a better system. My point is purely that CD32 crushes the Megadrive and SNES in terms of hardware power. Maximum game size on Megdrive = 32 megabit Maximum SNES game size = 48 megabit Maximum CD32 games size = 4400 megabit Just another example of the superiority of CD32's hardware Quote:
http://www.ianstedman.co.uk/download...per_manual.pdf I know Sonic the Hedgehog at most you get about 45 colours on screen maybe (this is from memory but I'm sure its about that). According to the official stats CD32 displays 262 144 colors on screen in HAM 8 mode (more than stated here) so it crushes the Megadrive in terms of still screens (it never said in games), I have heard stories that to make a colourful title screen on the Megadrive you have to use 2 playfields. Not to mention all tiles used in background maps have to be transferred to a limited VRAM space first. So while what you say about the CD32 is true - you don't pick apart the Megadrive's tech specs which are also misleading. It's the same with the SNES - sure it can display 4 playfields (Mode 0) but they each have only 4 colours (3 if you use transparent color). So almost no games use this mode. Also F-Zero, great game - but like pretty much all mode 7 games uses an enhancement chip to handle the 3D maths needed to calculate new object positions. So all these pieces of hardware are misleading people but the CD32 comes out of it as the most powerful overall. Quote:
That's not trolling to ask for a discussion to be more fair. People here seem to think trolling is disagreeing with them That's not trolling guys! You can't just call out troll everytime someone has a different opinion to you. Quote:
Quote:
I watched that AVGNerd episode ages ago and he implied his CD32 was like that when he got it. So it's his own fault he bought a dodgy machine. I think he just wanted to make the CD32 look bad. That's his thing though - entertainment not facts. The Gamesack CD32 episode is much fairer Last edited by Gilbert; 20 January 2021 at 17:03. |
|||||
20 January 2021, 17:03 | #466 |
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Cardiff, UK
Age: 51
Posts: 2,871
|
|
20 January 2021, 17:29 | #467 | ||||||
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 3,436
|
Quote:
Don't underestimate how this works, pushing marketing information towards developers is useful because it also gets read by managers who know next to nothing about the reality of what systems/software/etc can do and since they're the ones spending the money, they're often convinced by this kind of stuff to spend money when they really shouldn't. The actual developers usually already know these sheets are exaggerated. As a real-world example: I work a lot with databases and the amount of nonsense Microsoft, IBM, Oracle, etc. claim about their database server software and what it can achieve in their "developer marketing" around new versions is astonishing. People like me (the developers/experts) warn management it's not nearly as good as the docs make it sound, but management can often be convinced by impressive sounding official documents like this. It's a very effective way of getting people to spend money. Quote:
HAM-8 is not useful for the kind of games we're talking about here. Quote:
Quote:
Anyway, the spec sheet didn't compare against the SNES. Which is why I didn't comment on it. Quote:
Quote:
It's the way the CD32 specs on that sheet are being compared that is misleading. Last edited by roondar; 20 January 2021 at 17:32. Reason: Corrected my final conclusion |
||||||
20 January 2021, 17:32 | #468 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: South Shields
Posts: 812
|
Quote:
This is the sort of babble which makes you sound like a fool. |
|
20 January 2021, 19:36 | #469 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: South Wales
Age: 47
Posts: 944
|
Quote:
I do kind of admire the persistence but also find it very very very very very irritating at the same time. I am begging to wonder if he is the love child of doomy and his cd32 love is the equivalent of the military spec a2000 |
|
20 January 2021, 21:55 | #470 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 318
|
Quote:
But... I would sat Commodore actually understated the CD32's ablities in a couple of those specifications too so not sure what they are up to. Just seems like whoever wrote those specs didn't have real data for some reason. Also when it says "colours on screen" they are not going to choose a number lower than the maximum (well they actually did here but you get what I mean) Sony did this on Playstation 2. Max polygons per sec figures are usually just a very small triangle being drawn multiple times in the same position. In a game this figure is a LOT lower. I meant Pilotwings, but pretty much any mode 7 games that has more than a few objects in it uses an extra chip. e.g.Mario Kart Also on the Megadrive all sprites and map tiles have to be in (limited ) VRAM before they can be displayed. So it has disadvantages the CD32 does not have. The MD can only display 20 sprites per line. And it doesn't have a blitter to make up for it like the CD32. A lot of Megadrive games don't look as colourful as you expect from the stats. I think the Megadrive has colour restrictions per background layer too - just as AGA does As for Megadrive being better at action games Look at something like Battle Squadron on Megadrive, Is it better? Debatable. Maybe a few more objects at times. But looks LESS colourful than the A500 version. The AGA version would be a generation ahead. People underestimate how the Copper can be combined with sprites and the blitter on the CD32. Not to mention the use of the CD drive [ Show youtube player ] btw I just noticed the music on Battle Squadron rips off Kraftwerk. Have been trying to place that for ages Now this is trolling. Just insults with no proper arguments back. This guy was probably the same guy who back in the day got excited when he read the next version of SFII for the MD was coming on a 20 megabit cart but now is like : "Who cares about megabits?" - just because the CD32 destroys the Megadrive on that figure. Predictable... CD32: CD quality Music Megadrive : FM quality music Some more facts for you to call babble. Last edited by Gilbert; 20 January 2021 at 22:04. |
|
21 January 2021, 11:02 | #471 |
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Ur, Atlantis
Posts: 2,046
|
|
21 January 2021, 12:06 | #472 | ||||
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 3,436
|
Note: I had to shorten this post quite a bit as I originally made it much too long (some things I didn't answer as a result). Sometimes me doing this makes posts seem less friendly, but that is not the intention.
Quote:
Rather, they overstated the CPU's performance by a factor of two, fudged the sprite abilities by not pointing out the Blitter is not going to be able to compensate for the limited number of sprites per scanline, etc. Quote:
The MD can only display 20 sprites per line!? That's the equivalent of up to 640 pixels of sprites per line - that's actually a lot. Meanwhile, the Blitter can display at most around 20 objects of the same size as MD sprites in total. Not per line, just in total. Quote:
Case in point: there are much better playing & looking vertical shooters on the MD than Battle Squadron and Battle Squadron happens to be a port from the Amiga version, which means it was not originally designed with the MD's greater sprite abilities in mind. Anyway, even so the MD version visibly runs much smoother than the Amiga version in your video. Which is really kind of important for shooters Quote:
-- And now for something a bit more serious: Other, quite talented, Amiga programmers in this thread (such as mcgeezer & DanScott) have also pointed out to you the CD32 is not as powerful as you think. By saying the CD32 can really do much more than what we've seen (and more than what the coders here are saying), what you're essentially and hopefully unintentionally doing is saying that we all don't know what we're talking about. It further implies that all the programmers for the system in the past were also either incompetent or lazy because well, real world CD32 games are not actually more impressive than 16 bit console games. This is the key reason I'm still replying because I don't think this would be at all a fair assessment of the abilities of the coders in this thread/the Amiga community as a whole. Constantly overstating the abilities of the Amiga makes the people that code on it, make music/art on it seem to be really poor at what they do. And I really, really dislike that as we have some stellar individuals on this forum/in this community doing great work. Last edited by roondar; 21 January 2021 at 12:35. Reason: Spelling/grammar |
||||
21 January 2021, 13:02 | #473 | |
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Cardiff, UK
Age: 51
Posts: 2,871
|
Quote:
|
|
21 January 2021, 13:36 | #474 |
Phone Homer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: 5150
Posts: 5,812
|
writing games on Amiga no company had an in-house engine or code to reuse ready to use, things weren't to the same standard as console coders they had no access to game assets.
tricks are needed to get the best results, you have no access to examples to use, game writing takes longer and no resources or support from Commodore. |
21 January 2021, 13:43 | #475 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 3,436
|
Oh absolutely. There's many more, I just mentioned the two I remembered being most active in this 20+ pages thread
|
21 January 2021, 14:01 | #476 |
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: New Sandusky
Posts: 944
|
AGA was a huge lost opportunity for sprite enhancement. It's great that they can be 64 pixels wide instead of 16, but it would have been far, far better if they had used the bandwidth to allow 32 16-pixel sprites per scanline instead. You can always move sprites together to make a larger sprite, but the ability to split them up would've allowed for way more flexibility (imagine bullet hell shooters where you don't need lots of colors or pixels for sprites but need a lot of them)
|
21 January 2021, 22:13 | #477 | |
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: USA
Posts: 207
|
Quote:
|
|
21 January 2021, 22:45 | #478 |
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Sunderland, England
Posts: 2,702
|
Here's a case point about the CD32 not being great.
Most people know that I'm porting Super Sprint to AGA Amigas. I last touched the CD32 back when I was doing Bomb Jack so I had the code there for saving to NVRAM. Bomb Jack has 10 hi-score names, Super Sprint has 30. Just storing the 30*8 bytes brings it to 240 bytes and nearly a quarter of the NVRAM just for this game. Was it worth the effort to support CD32? Not really. Why did I do it? Because as I said earlier, I like all Amiga's. Should I adjust it from saving 30 names from the arcade? (Except them new fangled blood sucking things... don't like them). |
21 January 2021, 22:50 | #479 |
Lemon. / Core Design
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Tier 5
Posts: 1,213
|
you can pack the names into 6 bits per character (5 bits if you only use A-Z)
|
21 January 2021, 23:01 | #480 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Sunderland, England
Posts: 2,702
|
Quote:
Probably only worth storing the changed scores too. Might as well do it, there 36 chars. 1 long word for the score but it doesn't go above 999,999. Edit: Looks like I can get it down to under 100 bytes - 10 units. Certainly not a priority though. Last edited by mcgeezer; 22 January 2021 at 00:02. |
|
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests) | |
Thread Tools | |
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
What makes you an Amiga user? | manic23 | Nostalgia & memories | 63 | 14 May 2015 22:15 |
Only Amiga makes it possible | Reynolds | request.Other | 10 | 15 October 2010 04:09 |
Only the Amiga makes it possible... | Paul_s | Amiga scene | 46 | 09 July 2009 14:57 |
Only Amiga makes it possible! | laffer | Retrogaming General Discussion | 13 | 07 June 2007 05:50 |
What makes an Amiga 500PLUS ? | Konrad | New to Emulation or Amiga scene | 15 | 14 November 2003 11:14 |
|
|