Dungeon Master Custom Dungeons

[ransom1122]

The WHDLoad version 1.3 (20.05.2020) done by JOTD has...

- added trainer: no damage for the party

You can always make a single boot HDF and use it with uae4arm if that's what you use to emulate...

[EctoOne]

Yeah I know about the WHDLoad trainer and I have also found hacked saves on http://dmweb.free.fr/ but that's just to much. And like I said, it is great to map WASD to on screen buttons. I'm not sure but as far as I remember only CSB had cursor controls back then. So that might do the trick but I prefer this version now.

[EctoOne]

I finally had some time to actually play the original Dungeon Master with this version and I was wondering if the alternative ending is unavailable in it. According to the Dungeon Master Encyclopaedia http://dmweb.free.fr/?q=node/89 you can throw the firestaff over a pressure plate to avoid the paths leading upstairs being blocked. But I tired it and the paths are blocked. The Skeleton Stairway and the other hallway from the room with Lord Chaos. So I assume there must be a different trigger.

I've also seen that the War Cry - Priest Level "Bug" was removed. I always thought that it existed because of the the hidden Priest skill Influence. Which, I believe, can also be raised with the Horn of Fear. That's why it made sense to me that you can get Priest XP from the War Cry.

Edit: Well, I just looked at the Readme file and apparently it was fixed to get the firestaff back to the entrance. Which is sad.

Edit 2: Walking back to the entrance with an incomplete firestaff triggers the alternative ending. Yay

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by EctoOne

I've also seen that the War Cry - Priest Level "Bug" was removed. I always thought that it existed because of the the hidden Priest skill Influence. Which, I believe, can also be raised with the Horn of Fear. That's why it made sense to me that you can get Priest XP from the War Cry.

There is some logic in getting priest skills from war cry, but it can then be abused to get mana out of nowhere.
You have to understand that the war cry is nothing magical - you're just shouting at monsters - and shouldn't bring in magical abilities.
It's not for nothing this action simply does not exist anymore in DM2.

Originally Posted by EctoOne

Edit: Well, I just looked at the Readme file and apparently it was fixed to get the firestaff back to the entrance. Which is sad.

It got fixed because it's a bug, that's all. This behavior is "by design". Once you complete the firestaff, you're locked in until you fuse lord chaos.
If you have the complete firestaff you're supposed to know Librasulus isn't what he pretended to be so this part wouldn't work anymore (i think this is the reason why they did this).

I reckon having an area that's permanently blocked can be frustrating, so if this is annoying you, you can play the "dm1 altered" custom dungeon instead. It behaves the same until really late in the game.

Originally Posted by EctoOne

Edit 2: Walking back to the entrance with an incomplete firestaff triggers the alternative ending. Yay

It's not exactly an alternative ending, it's just a nice and fun way to lose. Much like what happens if you throw the wrong object at the ful ya pit in csb.

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by meynaf

There is some logic in getting priest skills from war cry, but it can then be abused to get mana out of nowhere.

Does it really matter? It's only useful to get some starting mana for mana-less characters, and it's not like these characters are the best. Characters with high wisdom are arguably the best (mana regen + stat potion stacking). Especially Chani is pretty ridiculous.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Thorham

Does it really matter? It's only useful to get some starting mana for mana-less characters, and it's not like these characters are the best. Characters with high wisdom are arguably the best (mana regen + stat potion stacking). Especially Chani is pretty ridiculous.

From a pure gameplay point of view it's probably not that much of an issue indeed ; nevertheless there is a conceptual problem in the fact you just have to bellow at monsters to develop magical abilities.

[EctoOne]

Originally Posted by meynaf

There is some logic in getting priest skills from war cry, but it can then be abused to get mana out of nowhere.
You have to understand that the war cry is nothing magical - you're just shouting at monsters - and shouldn't bring in magical abilities.
It's not for nothing this action simply does not exist anymore in DM2.

Like I said, I always made the connection with the hidden skill. Some sort of aggressive praying until you believe it yourself and gain some mana.

Originally Posted by meynaf

It got fixed because it's a bug, that's all. This behavior is "by design". Once you complete the firestaff, you're locked in until you fuse lord chaos.
If you have the complete firestaff you're supposed to know Librasulus isn't what he pretended to be so this part wouldn't work anymore (i think this is the reason why they did this).

Originally Posted by meynaf

It's not exactly an alternative ending, it's just a nice and fun way to lose. Much like what happens if you throw the wrong object at the ful ya pit in csb.

It's not your fault, it is just that the Encyclopaedia did not say that you can see that ending without completing the staff. It is written so that I assumed you have to complete the staff and throw it over the pressure plate to be able to see the ending. I've done that years ago but I can't remember if I did it with the complete staff or not.

Originally Posted by meynaf

I reckon having an area that's permanently blocked can be frustrating, so if this is annoying you, you can play the "dm1 altered" custom dungeon instead. It behaves the same until really late in the game.

It would be more frustrating if the end fight would actually be hard. But at that point, nobody will probably consider to go back to grind some skills. But I will definitely look at the altered version before I go deeper in CSB, I just got all items before the junction.

Edit: Oh, I forgot. I've finished creating the installer/launcher for your files. I can upload it if you're interested.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by EctoOne

Like I said, I always made the connection with the hidden skill. Some sort of aggressive praying until you believe it yourself and gain some mana.

It's really showing your warrior strength to frighten the monsters.
It ended up giving priest skill only because all similar actions are of magical nature and use that skill.
When i started playing i didn't even know it was possible to get mana this way

Originally Posted by EctoOne

It's not your fault, it is just that the Encyclopaedia did not say that you can see that ending without completing the staff. It is written so that I assumed you have to complete the staff and throw it over the pressure plate to be able to see the ending. I've done that years ago but I can't remember if I did it with the complete staff or not.

I understand what has confused you.
Actually, you can not see that part if you come back with the complete staff...
Only object ID of incomplete staff is checked (internally they are two different objects).

Originally Posted by EctoOne

It would be more frustrating if the end fight would actually be hard. But at that point, nobody will probably consider to go back to grind some skills. But I will definitely look at the altered version before I go deeper in CSB, I just got all items before the junction.

You can get more skills in this part than in many other places. Every area in the game has own experience multiplier.
A good place to store your items is the dragon room.

Originally Posted by EctoOne

Edit: Oh, I forgot. I've finished creating the installer/launcher for your files. I can upload it if you're interested.

I don't need it, but i do not see a problem in you uploading it either, so feel free.

[EctoOne]

Originally Posted by meynaf

It's really showing your warrior strength to frighten the monsters.

But you have to believe in yourself to be a good fighter.

Originally Posted by meynaf

It ended up giving priest skill only because all similar actions are of magical nature and use that skill.
When i started playing i didn't even know it was possible to get mana this way

So the influence skill is the problem here or maybe all hidden skills. I mean if there are skills you need ways to raise them. Would have probably been easier if an action would raise one of the four main skills directly instead of splitting it up in sub skills.

Originally Posted by meynaf

I understand what has confused you.
Actually, you can not see that part if you come back with the complete staff...
Only object ID of incomplete staff is checked (internally they are two different objects).

Good to know.

Originally Posted by meynaf

You can get more skills in this part than in many other places. Every area in the game has own experience multiplier.
A good place to store your items is the dragon room.

Yeah I know about the higher multiplier, I used that by dropping down the invisible pits at the beginning of the animated armor level to train at the singular flame generator. What I mean was that you don't need anything once you have the complete firestaff. So it is not that big of an issue. It's not like getting the ruby key for example, where you need the magnifier. Since you have fixed that, I actually had to go back to get it. Apparently there was a bug that every item could open the wall.

But since you mentioned storing items in the dragon room, I can see that being an issue when the paths are blocked. I stored my stuff on the Skeleton Stairway which is blocked after getting the complete staff. Hmm, might have been bad if I would have left anything important there. But then again, you don't need anything to beat the game. It might be bad for new players who want to train for CSB though and do not have a backup save before getting the full staff. Maybe they should have added a warning about that point of no return.

Originally Posted by meynaf

I don't need it, but i do not see a problem in you uploading it either, so feel free.

I actually thought about it and would like to add an extra step beforehand. Currently any save file in the game folder will be overwritten if a save for the launched dungeon exists. This only happens if the game wasn't properly ended by using the quit option, but I will add another check/requester to make it a bit more secure. Should be a quick one to add, I will look at it later.

[gimbal]

I remember using a magic box to give non-magic characters magical abilities. I kind of liked being able to do that. You can hardcore roleplay and simply not do it of course, that's the freedom of choice.

It is one of those aspects of game development that I really respect: don't try to make things possible, rather try to not make things impossible. If you want to turn a club wielding Neanderthal into Saruman... be my guest.

[EctoOne]

Well it is not impossible to gain mana. There are items which give certain skill boosts. For example, you can give Halk the Moonstone amulet from Chani and start training from there. But you need to find such an item if you want to go solo. In Dungeon Master I believe the first item which has gives enough mana is the teowand on the third or fourth level. Which is good enough to spend time at the screamer room. But I'm not sure if that is an option for the custom dungeons.

That actually reminds me. Meynaf, is there anything to keep in mind for Therons Quest? I was looking at it yesterday in the encyclopedia and it says that reincarnation is not available in the original game. And that the characters actually loose their progress after finishing a level. Since you have combined them into one dungeon, I can see some issues with balancing and stuff.

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by EctoOne

For example, you can give Halk the Moonstone amulet from Chani and start training from there.

Indeed. If you can scrounge up two mana and a potion bottle, then you're golden.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by EctoOne

But you have to believe in yourself to be a good fighter.

Well, a belief will never turn a weenie into a good fighter either

Originally Posted by EctoOne

So the influence skill is the problem here or maybe all hidden skills. I mean if there are skills you need ways to raise them. Would have probably been easier if an action would raise one of the four main skills directly instead of splitting it up in sub skills.

Ruleset is more complicated than it ought to be.

Originally Posted by EctoOne

Yeah I know about the higher multiplier, I used that by dropping down the invisible pits at the beginning of the animated armor level to train at the singular flame generator. What I mean was that you don't need anything once you have the complete firestaff. So it is not that big of an issue. It's not like getting the ruby key for example, where you need the magnifier. Since you have fixed that, I actually had to go back to get it. Apparently there was a bug that every item could open the wall.

There were several errors in the dungeon, f.e. in the first level it was possible to use a gold key in the lock of a previously already open door and lock yourself because they forgot to mark some of them as "run once" but they still "eat" the key.

Originally Posted by EctoOne

But since you mentioned storing items in the dragon room, I can see that being an issue when the paths are blocked. I stored my stuff on the Skeleton Stairway which is blocked after getting the complete staff. Hmm, might have been bad if I would have left anything important there. But then again, you don't need anything to beat the game. It might be bad for new players who want to train for CSB though and do not have a backup save before getting the full staff. Maybe they should have added a warning about that point of no return.

Well, usually your party will carry normal equipment at all times, with which you can still train for CSB, so i don't see that like a big issue.
Of course if you want to bug abuse the game by wearing all bonus items right before going to CSB, then it's a different story

Originally Posted by EctoOne

That actually reminds me. Meynaf, is there anything to keep in mind for Therons Quest? I was looking at it yesterday in the encyclopedia and it says that reincarnation is not available in the original game. And that the characters actually loose their progress after finishing a level. Since you have combined them into one dungeon, I can see some issues with balancing and stuff.

The dungeons are quite small and simple. You cannot bypass some area with objects found in another part. Characters also don't gain many levels so it does not seem to imbalance the game. I can forbid reincarnation but it did not seem necessary.
At least i played it from start to end and it was ok.

[EctoOne]

Originally Posted by meynaf

Of course if you want to bug abuse the game by wearing all bonus items right before going to CSB, then it's a different story

But that is fixed as well.

Originally Posted by meynaf

The dungeons are quite small and simple. You cannot bypass some area with objects found in another part. Characters also don't gain many levels so it does not seem to imbalance the game. I can forbid reincarnation but it did not seem necessary.
At least i played it from start to end and it was ok.

So would you say it is still viable to use reincarnated characters with the low amount of experience gain or would that be too difficult for a casual playthrough?

Oh another question. Somewhere in this thread there was some discussion about rechargeable items. And it sounded like that it is somehow possible. It was pretty vague and I can't remember if it was dungeon specific or a general thing. So is it all thing or would it be possible to add it somehow?

And since you have asked for suggestions for new spells. How about enabling creating the Ful Bomb? The reason why it was removed/never included is pretty dumb. http://dmweb.free.fr/?q=node/85

Also how about making versions of the potion spells which don't require empty flask? Like an instant healing spell for example. Of course those should have a high requirement. I'm not sure on what the difficulty is based on, but if it can be based on levels it probably should be at least a level 2 (Um) master priest maybe even higher. For the spells it would probably be enough to swap the ROS rune for something else or just add one for health/stamina.

Attached is a version of the installer/launcher. I had to fix something else but I think it should work fine now.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by EctoOne

But that is fixed as well.

Right. Sorry if you counted on it, but a bug is a bug, and abusing them is a way of cheating. Ok, i did this a lot in the past myself

Originally Posted by EctoOne

So would you say it is still viable to use reincarnated characters with the low amount of experience gain or would that be too difficult for a casual playthrough?

The game is easy enough. Using reincarnated characters is perfectly possible.

Originally Posted by EctoOne

Oh another question. Somewhere in this thread there was some discussion about rechargeable items. And it sounded like that it is somehow possible. It was pretty vague and I can't remember if it was dungeon specific or a general thing. So is it all thing or would it be possible to add it somehow?

It is possible. But game has no notion of per-item maximum number of charges so it's max=15 for everyone.

Originally Posted by EctoOne

And since you have asked for suggestions for new spells. How about enabling creating the Ful Bomb? The reason why it was removed/never included is pretty dumb. http://dmweb.free.fr/?q=node/85

Agreed. The reason would have been valid if they had deleted poison bombs as well, but they didn't.
Anyhow, new spells are for custom dungeons only - in order to not imbalance the game.

Originally Posted by EctoOne

Also how about making versions of the potion spells which don't require empty flask? Like an instant healing spell for example. Of course those should have a high requirement. I'm not sure on what the difficulty is based on, but if it can be based on levels it probably should be at least a level 2 (Um) master priest maybe even higher. For the spells it would probably be enough to swap the ROS rune for something else or just add one for health/stamina.

I don't see an interest in that.
If you're master priest then you're already fully equipped and close enough to the end of the game. It wouldn't be useful.
Else it makes normal spell obsolete and i don't want to do that.
But who knows, new spells might already exist in current version and it's just that they're not public knowledge...

[EctoOne]

Originally Posted by meynaf

It is possible. But game has no notion of per-item maximum number of charges so it's max=15 for everyone.

So it is not implemented?

Originally Posted by meynaf

Anyhow, new spells are for custom dungeons only - in order to not imbalance the game.

Fair enough.

Originally Posted by meynaf

If you're master priest then you're already fully equipped and close enough to the end of the game. It wouldn't be useful.

That would be only true for the original DM and maybe some of the custom dungeons. But it would be useful in CSB, that's why I suggested that high requirement. None of the available CSB characters has a master priest level when resurrected and I would say that you have to do some training in DM to really make use of it when using imported characters. Sure I finished my last run with level 3 masters but I've spent a lot of time grinding.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Else it makes normal spell obsolete and i don't want to do that.

Understandable, I just hate potions.

Originally Posted by meynaf

But who knows, new spells might already exist in current version and it's just that they're not public knowledge...

Well, time to try some combinations...

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by EctoOne

So it is not implemented?

I haven't said that

Originally Posted by EctoOne

That would be only true for the original DM and maybe some of the custom dungeons. But it would be useful in CSB, that's why I suggested that high requirement. None of the available CSB characters has a master priest level when resurrected and I would say that you have to do some training in DM to really make use of it when using imported characters. Sure I finished my last run with level 3 masters but I've spent a lot of time grinding.

The scarcity of flasks in CSB seems intentional so adding this kind of spell would go against the game design...

[EctoOne]

Originally Posted by meynaf

I haven't said that

Hmpf, one side you remove stuff that people are used to and on the other side there "might" the be new stuff. And both things aren't documented well and for the players to discover. And it isn't even clear if something is exclusive to a specific dungeon or a general change. Awesome...

Originally Posted by meynaf

The scarcity of flasks in CSB seems intentional so adding this kind of spell would go against the game design...

Or they also thought that flasks are stupid and can fill up your inventory. If I counted correctly, DM has 33 and CSB has 11 "reusable" flasks. I can see why it was reduced, I ended up with two chests full of empty flasks by the end of DM.

OK, one more thing though. Would it be possible to change the text in the hint oracle screen from "Return to system" (or whatever is called) to "Return to game"? I'm always hesitant to click on it. It might not look great with the icon but I think a confusing icon would be better than a confusing text.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by EctoOne

Hmpf, one side you remove stuff that people are used to and on the other side there "might" the be new stuff. And both things aren't documented well and for the players to discover. And it isn't even clear if something is exclusive to a specific dungeon or a general change. Awesome...

It's not "stuff that people are used to". It's bugs.
And yes i might add new stuff without directly documenting it. As perhaps spells weren't documented in the original game either and you had to "find" them

Originally Posted by EctoOne

Or they also thought that flasks are stupid and can fill up your inventory. If I counted correctly, DM has 33 and CSB has 11 "reusable" flasks. I can see why it was reduced, I ended up with two chests full of empty flasks by the end of DM.

Who knows. In DM2 you can buy any number of them.

Originally Posted by EctoOne

OK, one more thing though. Would it be possible to change the text in the hint oracle screen from "Return to system" (or whatever is called) to "Return to game"? I'm always hesitant to click on it. It might not look great with the icon but I think a confusing icon would be better than a confusing text.

Text is embedded in graphics so too much work for little benefit.
You can safely click on it. And in doubt, you can always save the game before

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by meynaf

It's not "stuff that people are used to". It's bugs.

They're bugs that people are used to Anyway, these fixes may be worth documenting. People will wonder why something doesn't work and assume it's a bug, while it's actually a fix.