Acorn Archimedes Software Preservation - Page 23

breach · 24 April 2012, 21:15

Yep, HRR and Pesky Muskrats working now. Thanks for the update.

MarkYoungIW · 25 April 2012, 10:39

Jon,
Out of interest did you ever see Fudge? It was a module that you could use when you had keydiscs. You'd copy the content of the disc onto your harddrive, add a couple of lines to !Run to load fudge which it would then record the discops into a file called chocolate. You could then remove your keydisc, change the run file on the HD copy again in order that Fudge then replies to the discops from the file it had created called Chocolate, and the game would then run without the keydisc (with fudge replaying from the file chocolate).

I remember it being fairly sucessful and have just found a copy whilst trawling through looking for patches etc.

If you feel its of any use, I will zip it up and send it. Trying to see if I have an original of Cataclysm. Not looking good though!

Jon Abbott · 25 April 2012, 12:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkYoungIW

Out of interest did you ever see Fudge?

I've come across a few modules that do this to get around protection, if you have the source it will be worth a look.

Going to try to get scatterlist support in the next release, so we can start imaging. Going to be a bit hacky without a front-end, but worth a go.

I've not had any comments to the file structure above, so I'll assume there's no complaints or obvious oversights and will start coding for it.

MarkYoungIW · 25 April 2012, 15:06

Had a quick look through the structure and it seems good to me. Seems fairly future and past proof.

Unfortuantely I don't have the source to Fudge, and annoyingly there is no author in the readme.

Hopefully I will get some more disc imaging done while its raining today, once I've sorted this lot out!!

Jon Abbott · 25 April 2012, 15:34

I'd wait until I have ADFFS loading JFD files (I thought JFDI was amusing, so stuck to it - Jon's Floppy Disk Image)

The record code is now complete, just need to code a BASIC ripper to create the JFD file and add support into ADFFS to load it.

MarkYoungIW · 25 April 2012, 15:39

There's going to be a mamouth convertor adf's, apd's, fdi's, jfdi's any advances!! : )

MarkYoungIW · 25 April 2012, 15:49

Have just done an apd of The Cobalt Seed (1995) (TBA Software) as it was one I had been asked for.

Jon Abbott · 25 April 2012, 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkYoungIW

There's going to be a mamouth convertor adf's, apd's, fdi's, jfdi's any advances!! : )

The mythical IPF!

In theory, you can use the ripper to convert them - no need for a converter

- doubt I'll ever directly support FDI or IPF.

Jon Abbott · 25 April 2012, 18:35

Just converted Zarch from an APD to JFD and it's 98k! And that's a full disc image, I'm going to convert it from the original floppy next, to see how much small it becomes.

EDIT: I should probably point out, that Zarch in APD form is inflated due to the multiple densities - I was curious to see by just how much.

MarkYoungIW · 25 April 2012, 18:56

98k! OK, you've got my attention!!!

Jon Abbott · 25 April 2012, 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkYoungIW

98k! OK, you've got my attention!!!

Don't get too excited, The Cobalt Seed, which is probably a worst case example, is 772k.

EDIT: ADFFS is now loading JFD's and I have a rudimentary BASIC APD converter. I'll make a start on the BASIC ripper to allow JFD creation from scratch tomorrow.

At some point I'll add code to allow APD's to be saved as JFD's directly from ADFFS and add in the delta change code.

antom · 26 April 2012, 00:52

Sounds good Jon, looking forward to finally converting all my games etc to a reliable format after all these years!

MarkYoungIW · 26 April 2012, 13:38

Have found a patch and got 'Overload (1989) (Clares).apd' running on the A3010 through ADFFS. I will send the apd and patch to you Jon its fairly simple. Until now I'd not managed to get Overload to run in Arcualtor either.

MarkYoungIW · 28 April 2012, 10:21

In amongst the tons of stuff I have dug out, I have found a module to circumvent Computer Concept Dongle. However, I dont remember what software required it. Was it Impression and Sibelius? And how useful is it now?

Jon Abbott · 28 April 2012, 14:45

The dongle was for Impression - the RISC PC I collected yesterday came with it and the dongle. Now I've had a chance to look through the floppies, I now have originals of the following:

2067BC
Arcturus
Black Angel
The Dungeon
Magnetoids
Star Fighter 3000
Stunt Racer 2000 (which is HD!)
Stunt Racer 2000 Extra Tracks
Xenon 2 Megablast

So, along with Zarch, I now have a good selection of protected originals to test imaging on - assuming they read okay.

breach · 29 April 2012, 14:50

Hope it's not too late to give my thoughts on the idea for capturing protected discs on Acorns.

What you suggest sounds great, however, I'm not sure if it's workable in my situation. My only real system is a SA RiscPC, with RO4. Gave the Arc away years ago. So I don't think there's a way to capture games that don't run on a RiscPC with the suggested method, since it's necessary to play the game.

Would it be possible to do a "complete" capture of discs on the RiscPC without needing to play the game, and then, using an Arc emulator, optimise it to an image containing only what's needed?

Maybe my case is too uncommon for you to bother about, but I thought I'd mention it. All the progress made has been great so far.

MarkYoungIW: Wow, that's a lot of floppies you have to work through.

Is Clares' Overload a different game to Paradise's Overload? (antom put a copy of Paradise's in The Zone.) Are your images available anywhere?

Jon Abbott · 29 April 2012, 17:44

It's impossible to capture an image of a floppy with protection, without either doing a raw MFM dump, or knowing the disc geometry up front.

It's probably not as bad as you think, I've documented all the protection methods I've come across, so it may be possible to grab them if we know what protection method they're using. How many protected floppies are we talking about? I don't suppose you know, if you can't run them!

SA obviously severely restricts what you can run, as most protection methods use self modifying code, that will fail on a SA.

You probably want to image as many as you can into ADF and see what's left, we'll have to analyse them to see what methods they're using.

breach · 29 April 2012, 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Abbott

It's impossible to capture an image of a floppy with protection, without either doing a raw MFM dump, or knowing the disc geometry up front.

OK. And the MFM dump can't be done on Acorn machines?

Quote:

It's probably not as bad as you think, I've documented all the protection methods I've come across, so it may be possible to grab them if we know what protection method they're using. How many protected floppies are we talking about? I don't suppose you know, if you can't run them!

I have:
Cannon Fodder
Exodus
Flashback
Inferno
Overload
Quark

Might have some more (some were given away), and I know I had Big Bang and Revolver, but I can't find them anywhere.

Quark is protected, and I'm not sure of the others.

MarkYoungIW · 29 April 2012, 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Abbott

I've documented all the protection methods I've come across

Where abouts did you document these? Would be interesting to have a look and see if any others spring to mind.

Jon Abbott · 29 April 2012, 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by breach

OK. And the MFM dump can't be done on Acorn machines?

Exactly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkYoungIW

Where abouts did you document these? Would be interesting to have a look and see if any others spring to mind.

I'll send it to you offline, it needs tidying up before I post online.

25 April 2012, 18:35	#449
Jon Abbott Registered User Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: UK Posts: 96	Just converted Zarch from an APD to JFD and it's 98k! And that's a full disc image, I'm going to convert it from the original floppy next, to see how much small it becomes. EDIT: I should probably point out, that Zarch in APD form is inflated due to the multiple densities - I was curious to see by just how much. Last edited by Jon Abbott; 25 April 2012 at 18:56.

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24 April 2012, 21:15	#441
breach Banned Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: UK Posts: 37	Yep, HRR and Pesky Muskrats working now. Thanks for the update.

25 April 2012, 10:39	#442
MarkYoungIW Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Isle of Wight Posts: 154	Jon, Out of interest did you ever see Fudge? It was a module that you could use when you had keydiscs. You'd copy the content of the disc onto your harddrive, add a couple of lines to !Run to load fudge which it would then record the discops into a file called chocolate. You could then remove your keydisc, change the run file on the HD copy again in order that Fudge then replies to the discops from the file it had created called Chocolate, and the game would then run without the keydisc (with fudge replaying from the file chocolate). I remember it being fairly sucessful and have just found a copy whilst trawling through looking for patches etc. If you feel its of any use, I will zip it up and send it. Trying to see if I have an original of Cataclysm. Not looking good though!

25 April 2012, 15:06	#444
MarkYoungIW Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Isle of Wight Posts: 154	Had a quick look through the structure and it seems good to me. Seems fairly future and past proof. Unfortuantely I don't have the source to Fudge, and annoyingly there is no author in the readme. Hopefully I will get some more disc imaging done while its raining today, once I've sorted this lot out!!

25 April 2012, 15:34	#445
Jon Abbott Registered User Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: UK Posts: 96	I'd wait until I have ADFFS loading JFD files (I thought JFDI was amusing, so stuck to it - Jon's Floppy Disk Image) The record code is now complete, just need to code a BASIC ripper to create the JFD file and add support into ADFFS to load it.

25 April 2012, 15:39	#446
MarkYoungIW Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Isle of Wight Posts: 154	There's going to be a mamouth convertor adf's, apd's, fdi's, jfdi's any advances!! : )

25 April 2012, 15:49	#447
MarkYoungIW Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Isle of Wight Posts: 154	Have just done an apd of The Cobalt Seed (1995) (TBA Software) as it was one I had been asked for.

25 April 2012, 18:56	#450
MarkYoungIW Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Isle of Wight Posts: 154	98k! OK, you've got my attention!!!

26 April 2012, 00:52	#452
antom Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 24	Sounds good Jon, looking forward to finally converting all my games etc to a reliable format after all these years!

26 April 2012, 13:38	#453
MarkYoungIW Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Isle of Wight Posts: 154	Have found a patch and got 'Overload (1989) (Clares).apd' running on the A3010 through ADFFS. I will send the apd and patch to you Jon its fairly simple. Until now I'd not managed to get Overload to run in Arcualtor either.

28 April 2012, 10:21	#454
MarkYoungIW Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Isle of Wight Posts: 154	In amongst the tons of stuff I have dug out, I have found a module to circumvent Computer Concept Dongle. However, I dont remember what software required it. Was it Impression and Sibelius? And how useful is it now?

28 April 2012, 14:45	#455
Jon Abbott Registered User Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: UK Posts: 96	The dongle was for Impression - the RISC PC I collected yesterday came with it and the dongle. Now I've had a chance to look through the floppies, I now have originals of the following: 2067BC Arcturus Black Angel The Dungeon Magnetoids Star Fighter 3000 Stunt Racer 2000 (which is HD!) Stunt Racer 2000 Extra Tracks Xenon 2 Megablast So, along with Zarch, I now have a good selection of protected originals to test imaging on - assuming they read okay.

29 April 2012, 14:50	#456
breach Banned Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: UK Posts: 37	Hope it's not too late to give my thoughts on the idea for capturing protected discs on Acorns. What you suggest sounds great, however, I'm not sure if it's workable in my situation. My only real system is a SA RiscPC, with RO4. Gave the Arc away years ago. So I don't think there's a way to capture games that don't run on a RiscPC with the suggested method, since it's necessary to play the game. Would it be possible to do a "complete" capture of discs on the RiscPC without needing to play the game, and then, using an Arc emulator, optimise it to an image containing only what's needed? Maybe my case is too uncommon for you to bother about, but I thought I'd mention it. All the progress made has been great so far. MarkYoungIW: Wow, that's a lot of floppies you have to work through. Is Clares' Overload a different game to Paradise's Overload? (antom put a copy of Paradise's in The Zone.) Are your images available anywhere?

29 April 2012, 17:44	#457
Jon Abbott Registered User Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: UK Posts: 96	It's impossible to capture an image of a floppy with protection, without either doing a raw MFM dump, or knowing the disc geometry up front. It's probably not as bad as you think, I've documented all the protection methods I've come across, so it may be possible to grab them if we know what protection method they're using. How many protected floppies are we talking about? I don't suppose you know, if you can't run them! SA obviously severely restricts what you can run, as most protection methods use self modifying code, that will fail on a SA. You probably want to image as many as you can into ADF and see what's left, we'll have to analyse them to see what methods they're using.

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